America founded on Biblical principles
Fisted by FatFinger under Uncategorized on Sun, Jun 21, 2009
Tags: god, History, information, Religion
[246] Comments
My uncle wrote this. I thought it was interesting. -Fat
In a recent article, an attendee of a local gathering in observance of the National Day of Prayer alleged, “Our nation was founded on biblical principles.”
To the extent that our Founding Fathers had any religious affiliation at all, it was a tepid embracing of the philosophy of deism, a popular system of thought at the time. Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, among many others, held deist, rather than Christian, religious beliefs.
The two documents upon which our country was actually founded — i.e., the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States — contain not a word about Christianity, Christian principles, the Bible or Jesus Christ. Neither is there any mention of the Ten Commandments, heaven, prayer or being saved.
In 1797, the Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated by none other than George Washington, declared that “the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” Congress unanimously approved the text of this treaty, and John Adams signed it.
Mandatory church affiliation, among other factors, led to the establishment of the term a “wall of separation between church and state,” allowing, at each citizen’s discretion, freedom of religion or freedom from religion.
The phrase “under God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, and our national motto became “In God We Trust” in 1956 in response to USSRs’ so-called “godless Communists.” It is historically incorrect to claim that America was founded upon Christianity.
Indeed, it was quite the opposite.
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July 11th, 2009 at 9:47 pm[...] been having a record-setting discussion in the comments section of FatFinger’s post about American being founded on non-Biblical [...]
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:11 am
This needs to be posted in every newspaper, website, TV station and bus stop kiosk in America.
June 22nd, 2009 at 11:08 am
“This needs to be posted in every newspaper, website, TV station and bus stop kiosk in America.”
Unfortunately the same people that see “biblical principals” in documents that make no such statements would only see it as a conspiracy by us godless liberals.
June 22nd, 2009 at 11:14 am
Case in point….
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/06/im_a_woodpecker_in_boomboomlan.php
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:58 pm
fuck the newspapers, that was some brilliant historical insight. If your uncle is willing to allow it to be used by the general public for viewing by the general public, I know someone who might want to incorporate the quote into some street poster art.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:01 am
If we eliminated God from the equation of American life,we eliminate the reason this nation first began. From beyond the grave I hear the voices of our founding fathers plead “You need God in America again”.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:26 am
John,
I think you have either misread the text or missed the point completely.
This country was founded on the desire to live godlessly as much as it was to be Christian, or Muslim, or any other religion, most like likely more-so. It’s written as such by our founding fathers in our most trusted and praised historical documents.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Fatfinger,
June 27th, 2009 at 8:19 am
Fatfinger,
I didn’t misread the text, however I do think you did not understand my point. At this point and time in your life I really don’t think you are able to. Don’t feel bad and don’t worry. Help is on the way. Make a little mental note.
June 27th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Heh. John hears people who are dead. That seems to be a common problem with the religious types.
Cognitive dissonance is what they call the kind of aggressive ignorance, right Digit?
June 27th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
John must be the kind of Christian who wants to get into a “Who is more Christian” contest with people that he’s never met and know NOTHING about?
I was simply posting something that my uncle wrote that I found interesting, and you write condescending comments trying to make yourself look wiser than strangers.
SAD, but you must be at a point in your life where you don’t understand that you do that to people/strangers?
June 28th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Hmn, I see what John is trying to say and how it has nothing to do with the above article. It is not to say that the U.S. needs to be godless, only that the U.S. keep God and government separate, and more so that Christianity was NOT the foundation for the creation of this nation. The original intent of the “separation of church and state” was to PROTECT Americans’ right to practice religion freely from an over-zealous government forcing people to accept a particular faith and governing by it. This is the value that was lacking in England and why people fled religious persecution. Recently, it seems to me that the “separation of church and state” doctrine is being used in reverse…to protect the govenment from over-zealous church entities who feel that by forcing God upon it’s citizens will somehow save America. Here is where I will agree with John (slightly), Americans do need something to believe in again…that seems to have been lost. Whether it is God, Allah, Krsna, Vishnu, Spiderman, Barack Obama, Flying Spaghetti monsters, ect… those are personal choices made by the individual and insured by the foresight and wisdom of our founding fathers to create a nation where people are FREE to believe in whatever they feel the need to believe in…so Godless America or not, it is a personal choice to be decided in one’s own home and I for one am very grateful for that right.
sorry for the rambling text.
June 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
“Americans do need something to believe in again…that seems to have been lost. Whether it is God, Allah, Krsna, Vishnu, Spiderman, Barack Obama, Flying Spaghetti monsters, ect… those are personal choices made by the individual and insured by the foresight and wisdom of our founding fathers to create a nation where people are FREE to believe in whatever they feel the need to believe in…so Godless America or not, it is a personal choice to be decided in one’s own home and I for one am very grateful for that right.”
I agree with you on the personal choice thing, but belief in things unsubstantiated by evidence coupled with an unwillingness to call people out for it is a dangerous thing. At best it leads to political gridlock (whether on a social, professional, or governmental level) and bad decision decision making; and at worst violence and subjugation for no good reason. The last thing we need right now is people stubbornly clinging to useless and baseless ideas, obstructing human progress with “Don’t judge me!” as their battle cry.
June 28th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
That just sounds like you are describing ignorance, which has always been and will continue to be the bane of human progress.
June 28th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Agreed, but people seem all too willing to give religious ignorance a pass.
June 28th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Guys,
I heard a quote the other day;
”To follow you I’m not content until I know which way you went, if where you went is where I’ve been, I may not want to go again”.
I am 63. There were times in my life when I was very sure of certain things and as I grew older I found that some things I was so sure about either didn’t matter anymore or I had completely changed my mind about. Some things you just can’t prove. You can’t see the wind but we all know it’s there.
You guys are a lot smarter than I am but sometimes being smart is not enough. Jesus Christ said to one of his disciples, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. In the book of Acts it reads “neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”. I realize people have to decide what they believe for themselves. I have no idea what you all believe but I believe Mohamed was probably a pretty good man. I don’t know, but I believe he was just a man just like you and I. The same goes for Allah, Krsna, Vishnu, Spiderman, Barack Obama, Flying Spaghetti monsters. Jesus Christ was and is the son of God. He is not dead. He is alive. One of these days every knee will bow to him and every tongue will confess that he is Lord. I’m not saying you don’t believe that. I’m just saying I do and I believe the future of this country depends entirely upon what we as a nation do about Jesus Christ. I am a Christian but I am not what one would call a good Christian. I would be like a Christian that barely got his foot in the door. I do not attend any church. I do read the bible. God knows I am not called to be a teacher. I do know there is power in prayer so you all need to hang on. Go ahead and laugh but laugh and hang on.
June 28th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
What does the preamble of every STATE OF THE UNITED STATES BEGIN WITH? Why and where did this originate? Only blind prejudice will attempt to say America is not predicated on Biblical Christianity.
June 28th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Uuuuhhhhh.
Whisp: are you talking about the Preamble to the constitution? The one that goes like this:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Or are you talking about something else?
John: It’s too bad you’ve been bamboozled so late in the game. If you just got your foot in the Christian door, it’s not too late to sever the foot to save the brain!
June 28th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Agreed Nutxaq,
All things considered and ignorant person is much less frightening than an ignorant religious zealot….
Also, Whisp…I can see where you are trying to go here, but as shown and is evidence by the above article (fact check it if you must), this nation was founded on the belief that our nation be a democracy endorsing many personal freedoms and beliefs and the protection of those freedoms/beliefs and not be either a monarchy such as old England or modern Saudi Arabia), oligarchy (such as ancient France or modern South Africa), or Totalitarian (such as modern N. Korea), and it most definitely was NOT meant to be a Theocracy (such as modern Iran) I know that most of you can see the difference in these nations and why it is our Nation, with all of its’ faults (and there are many) has distinct advantages to the above named.
It is well known and accepted that the first settlements in the U.S. were by people seeking to escape the very government types described and the persecution that goes along with them, However, because these first settlements were by people that were fleeing persecution in order to perhaps practice their Christian faiths on new soil in no way means or implies that this country was founded on THOSE particular beliefs or THAT particular faith…I said my part and as of now, am done with this thread.
June 29th, 2009 at 8:59 am
John, buddy, in order for your statements to have any weight, you need to assume one thing: that I believe anything the Bible says is true. You quote it as if it has any authority beyond your own mind. The Bible is a fiction. Anything you quote from it holds no more water than quotes from Captain Kirk. Wait… that’s not true. What Captain Kirk says is GENIUS!!
June 29th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Digit, word.
June 29th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
HAH….
I have practiced paganism, wicca, voodoo, christianity.
I have studied numerous religions and philosophy…. The conclusion
Humans are simple animals with some capability for higher thought. We are easily confused, and we are weak. Believing in something more is great, there is something more. Life after death? NO. a soul? Sure. “Magic” or “power of prayer” or “energy” SURE!
A god?… sure but my god is made of electrons, and it is everything. 0, 1, 3.
But this is all just MY interpretation, it doesn’t mean anything to anyone else.
America was founded so I could think this way without being burned alive. and that is the point.
Do we need more faith right now?… no, blind faith got us where we are. (I can pay this credit card bill I have faith in my job/earning skills.) Blind faith and trust that “god will work it out for me” is great positive thinking, however when it “works” it is because you had a positive mood and did it yourself. They say in christianity that “god helps those who help themselves.” Actually my good man, Those who help themselves and others, help themselves.
Even Jesus encouraged people to serve their fellow man, for they are his body.
Religion as a whole is a control mechanism that our founding fathers recognized and ran from. Most of them were in a group that sought to do the same thing, one that helped to found catholicism (which made the modern banking industry what it is.) went on the crusades (a bloody time not as they tell it in church.)
As it is I am just ranting here… I hate what people ignorantly do in the name of a religion or god. And I “Pray” that you sit back and think about it and see if that bible has anything worth reading other than direct jesus quotes. The historical accuracy is completely off.
Our government is much the same, trying to direct thought, being bought and paid by big oil, plastics, and pharms. False prophets, campaign lies. It’s the same thing as the church. History repeats.
Don’t be sheeple, be people. And acknowledge the “god” within.
Overthrow the churches.
Overthrow the congresses.
June 29th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Just call me hopeless. Hey Digit, TriggerFinger-BANG,ChaosFist,Thumb’ Fatfinger and Nutxaq
I realize the original subject was whether or not America was founded on biblical principles or not. As far as I can determine anything good about any country is directly related to what that country does concerning Jesus Christ.
I Hope and pray you will all find peace and happiness in your life. As for myself I believe the bible to be the true and infallible word of God. I have no personal skills, knowledge, or expertise when it comes to trying to persuade anyone of the truth of the bible. I have no textbooks, formulas, or strategies to try to make you believe anything about the bible.
However I will say, contrary to what some people think, you do not have to know philosophy or theology to know Christ. You do not need a seminary degree. I do know that Jesus died on my behalf, bore my sins, and paid my penalty of death. As a result, I received the gift of eternal life from God. The reason I know this is because his spirit bares witness with my spirit.
I commend you all for your research on the subject. I hope we can continue to talk from time to time. Good day.
June 29th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Guys,
I realize the original subject was whether or not America was founded on biblical principles or not. As far as I can determine anything good about any country is directly related to what that country does concerning Jesus Christ.
I Hope and pray you will all find peace and happiness in your life. As for myself I believe the bible to be the true and infallible word of God. I have no personal skills, knowledge, or expertise when it comes to trying to persuade anyone of the truth of the bible. I have no textbooks, formulas, or strategies to try and make you believe anything about the bible.
However I will say, contrary to what some people think, you do not have to know philosophy or theology to know Christ. You do not need a seminary degree. I do know that Jesus died on my behalf, bore my sins, and paid my penalty of death. As a result, I received the gift of eternal life from God. The reason I know this is because his spirit bares witness with my spirit.
I commend you all for your research on the subject. I hope we can continue to talk from time to time. Good day.
June 30th, 2009 at 1:30 am
“I sometimes think our nation was ‘losted’ on Christianity.” —my mom
June 30th, 2009 at 10:22 am
John, My life is happy and peaceful. I know for a fact that thumb and digit are peaceful and happy. You don’t need to follow the crowd to be happy. In fact I finds myself much happier avoiding the crowd and its popular mob mentality.
Remember I WAS a christian once? Believe it or not I had a scholarship and I almost wen to bible college and on missionary work to haiti.
You want the real dope on Christ?… The old testament is 100% DEAD. Christ killed it. IF you want to follow Christ and be a “christian” then get a red letter bible and never read anything but the red.
You want the truth on religion? They are all the same story with names changed to protect the guilty.
Jesus is RA, the egyptian god of the sun, you can read his story about 2,000 years before christ was supposidly born.
Ra was the son of god. (or the god of the sun) He died, and was gone for 3 days, then he arose again. he then rose and ascended to the heavens,….. funny, didn’t Jesus steal that story 2k years later?
Oh right… because the story of Christ is an allegory for the growing season in its applicable hemispheres… Did “the devil” make these stories up to confuse us? NO the devil knew nothing of jesus or his story before it happened, the historyical accounts are carved into stones, Zoroastrism existed before ANY organized religion and they told the same story….
Jesus, Promethius, Loki, Ra… ETC… it’s all the same story with cultureal twists. Your religion is a lie, and I appologize for saying it, but a 60some year old man should explore all possibility and not be limited by what he’s been taught. Maybe you should go to a church John, if anything cures you of religious delusion it will be the other people who believe it… once you open mindedly accept the idea that christianity may just be a beautiful lie and look around yourself you’re just going to see brainwashed sheep.
June 30th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
What are the 3 major world religions?
Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
What is the ONLY difference between those three and Greek/Roman religions, Zoroastrianism, Norse religion, Celtic religion, Mayan religion, Egyptian religion, Pagan religion, and on and on and on?
THERE’S A BOOK!!
If it weren’t for the fact that someone wrote a book to accompany the three major religions, they would be just as dead as the rest. And viewed just as silly and curious. All three of them have their roots in stone age culture. I don’t know about you, but I won’t even read last month’s Time magazine in the barber shop. Why should I take instructions from someone who gelded sheep with rocks?
June 30th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
To ChaosFist and all,
I don’t really like crowds either. Trying to follow Christ is not something you want to do if you need to be to be associated with a crowd. I will just have to disagree with you on the Old Testament being dead though. I believe the Old Testament focuses on the Ten Commandments or the Law. In the red letter scripture Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
I would love to attend a church. I do not attend at this time because my wife is ill and I really can’t. I have attended church for a number of years. I loved it. I was much younger though and was somewhat critical about a lot of things I heard and saw. Now that I am older I have learned a few things about people. I have learned that being a Christian does not mean you are perfect or that you will no longer have problems like everyone else. If I ever do go back to church I won’t be sitting there being so judgmental.
I really do respect you all for standing firm in the decisions you have made. Someone told me a long time ago that a wise man changes his mind and a fool never does. I’ll keep my mind open. I hope you all do the same.
June 30th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
I have changed my mind. But the beauty of where I arrived is that I don’t have to remain static. The world of the atheist is open to countless ideas and practices that are forbidden the Christian because of dogmatic instruction. I could never close my mind, it is not in my nature. This, in part, is why I abandoned religion.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:44 am
has anyone done a study to see who gets laid more ofte, the “christian” or the “agnostic/athiest?”
i’m curious. i know who i would rather fuck…
July 1st, 2009 at 8:28 am
Keeping an open mind and rebellion are closely related just ask Adam and Eve. You didn’t change your mind friend you simply gave into your inquisitive human sinful nature. Whether this country was established on Biblical values is irrelevant at this time. What is more relevant now is we BETTER establish Biblical values now before our founded freedom buries us in sinful rebellion.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:42 am
If you are going to use Adam and Eve in your argument, then you better be living daily as a naked vegetarian, otherwise you are a hypocrite and I shouldn’t listen to a word you say about Biblical values. Right?
The return God’s perfect world, The Garden of Eden, is your goal?
July 1st, 2009 at 11:52 am
We post a lot of funny stuff on Fist. This one is quickly becoming my favorite though.
Pastor Normond obviously has a weak, incurious mind.
Which is his business. At least until he starts bleating his unquestioning sheeplike in my direction.
In other words, shut up you fucking assholes. You’re wasting your time. We think. You follow blindly.
I think that means we win.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:58 pm
When someone can explain, without referencing the Bible, why they are right about god and Jesus, then maybe I’ll consider it.
And I did not rebel. I merely started recontextualizing my life. And besides, what does it matter if I did rebel? What was I rebelling against? An imaginary figurehead? My parents? A group of people who gather once a week to talk to their imaginary friend?
July 1st, 2009 at 6:11 pm
“When someone can explain, without referencing the Bible, why they are right about god and Jesus, then maybe I’ll consider it.”
It’s funny, it’s like telling you you’re doing a bad job because you’re not following the McDonald’s employee manual without ever establishing whether or not you work at McDonald’s in the first place.
Christards: Until you prove the foundational principle of your faith (i.e. there is a god) mind your own fucking business.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:55 am
First and formost I love you guys but I must say I just really don’t believe that you all have absolute proof of everything that has anything to do with your lives. I bet if you stop and think about it you could think of a lot of things that you believe in that you just can’t prove.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:11 am
John, you are ABSOLUTELY correct.
There are PLENTY of things in this universe that I cannot prove. But that’s the beauty of being an atheist. I don’t have to automatically assign god as the answer to these unknowns. I know there’s an explanation to EVERYTHING, it just hasn’t been discovered yet, and that’s awe inspiring.
God is merely the barrier between the known and the unknown. In ancient times that barrier was much closer. Why does the sun rise? God. Why does the thunder rumble? God. Why are children born? God. But as time and progress march on, that barrier gets pushed farther and farther back. Why does the sun rise? Because the earth orbits a small yellow star, and is turning on its pole every 24 hours. Why does thunder rumble? Because the intense heat of the static discharge creates a vacuum which then collapses in on itself, causing a shockwave. Why are children born? Sex, sperm, egg, genetics, mitosis, blastocyst, embryo, birth. There are more questions raised by these answers, but god isn’t there either. We are constantly finding that the more we discover, the more questions are being raised, but there are answers to these too. But the most empowering thing you can realize, and the thing that separates us is, just because you do not know does not mean there is no answer. And assigning god to that question is a sure path to ignorance. It makes you stop questioning, puts a barrier up. Beyond here lies blasphemy. That’s unacceptable. We have pushed the god barrier back exponentially over the past century, and that realization that there are answers to the unknown has showed us that the god barrier isn’t at the limit of our understanding, it’s merely in our minds.
So yes, John, you are right. There is plenty I have no absolute proof of. But lack of proof does not mean existence of god. It merely means we have work to do.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:38 am
The reference to Adam and Eve was to point out that the world has been rebellious toward God since the beginning of time. If you take away the legitimacy of the Bible as the word of God then sir’s we have no argument. Simply put, when we die we will find out the truth.
A. There is a God and those who follow His word will reap the benefits of it’s promises. Those who rejected His Word and belief in Him will be sent to Hell.
B. God does not exist and when we die we are just gone forever. Those that believed in God led fruitful lives and had a Christlike reputation. Those that lived how they wanted to live had less of a legacy to leave behind. Both are gone but ones memory was sweeter than the other.
I think either way the one who’s faith in God still lived a more rewarding life.
Basically since I am a believer I have nothing to loose either way!
To think with-in the limitations of this life and world is shallow minded. To have faith in something greater (God) is living to our fullest potential.
You may mock me and use vulgarities it is understandable and is the state of the world we live in. I forgive you!
Love,
Pastor Nomad
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:44 am
“Adam and Eve” and the “beginning of time”…Pretty odd to even pair that up.
Replace “God” in your little list with “Marshmallow Beast” your argument becomes infinitely more valid. We can all prove that both marshmallows and beasts exist.
I don’t think anyone here is mocking you, and we definitely are not asking for your forgiveness.
Besides, you came to us, uninvited, to preach your ideas in our home.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I am interested to hear your proof that God does not exist. I am not preaching I am stating my beliefs that was instituted by our founding fathers that “did not” found our country on biblical principals. that was the purpose of this thread after all right? I find it very amusing that the mear mention of God or bible or Christ in a thread delivers such an uproar. How could a God that does not exist be so controversial and offensive?
I preach because that is what i do. I am a minister of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I do not wish to be an intrusion so if you would like i can go away and stop bugging you?
God bless you, (I mean Marshmallow beast bless you!)
Pastor Nomad
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Pastor, It is NOT the responsibility of the non-believer to prove non-existence.
It is YOUR responsibility as a believer to prove existence.
How can one prove that something DOESN’T exist?
Seriously.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
…and by the way. I’m a believer.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
When we take away the word of God we take away the voice of proof. The proof comes from the testimony of his Word.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:32 pm
“When we take away the word of God we take away the voice of proof. The proof comes from the testimony of his Word.”
That’s circular reasoning and is a logical fallacy. What you’re saying is the proof that god exists is that he says he exists. That doesn’t hold up under any scrutiny. The burden of proof is on you to prove a god exists. And playing word games won’t cut it.
And the reason the name of Jesus or the bible cause such an uproar is because, as someone who sees religion’s (not just yours either) impact on the world, I see hatred, oppression, violence, death, sexism, racism, homophobia and on and on, all backed with the conviction that some god thinks it’s OK. Well, isn’t it odd that god always seems to agree with you (the pluralistic you, not you specifically)?
And your assertion that the atheist lives a better life and is remembered more fondly is patently false. In fact, I know plenty of atheists, and they are among the most moral people I know. It’s because they arrive at their moral convictions out of a sense of humanity, not divinity. Their convictions have been adopted by reason and understanding, not by some authority who needn’t explain the reason behind the rule. As such, the morality is more personal and more closely held. It’s also born of a sense of sympathy and empathy for others. And rarely will an atheist commit acts of violence because some authority told them it was OK. Frankly it bothers me that the term atheist is so often confused with hedonist and psychopath. The argument that we atheists can do whatever we want because we have no sin is silly. Just because we have no sin does not bean we want to commit wanton acts of destruction. We understand that we shouldn’t hurt others because we wouldn’t want someone to hurt us or our loved ones (and yes, we do love, deeply and truly).
Atheists have contributed richly and greatly to all aspects of the global culture. For a small list of some great atheists, check here. We’re valid, resourceful, intelligent humans, and frankly one of the last minorities it’s still OK to bash. That’s why we fight so vehemently with our words. We’re not pariahs. We’re humans.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
…Stephen F Roberts
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
“How could a God that does not exist be so controversial and offensive?”
This is a false analogy. Also a logical fallacy. It does not follow that controversy proves existence. The Salem Witch Trials proved that. Besides, it is not the god that is offensive. It’s the actions of the believers.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:50 pm
“I am interested to hear your proof that God does not exist.”
No one ever made that claim.
“You may mock me and use vulgarities it is understandable and is the state of the world we live in.”
You will note, I have neither mocked you nor used a vulgarity. So, does that mean I get to keep playing?
Seriously though, what I’d like to see from you is a direct response to my replies. I have done my best to read what you have written and respond in kind. So far I have not seen any direct responses from you, just more assertions of faith that do not follow the path of the debate other than to touch upon the original point of religion’s role in the founding of our nation.
Take me on directly, man!
July 2nd, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Dear “Christian” friends,
Ha! I mock and I mock without remorse. One note first, those guys that were “persecuted” back in the old country… yeah… they were kicked out cause they were asses. Hell they went to Holland first and even they kicked them out! Come on, we’re talking the Dutch here!
Anyways, I’ll make no real attempt at being eloquent here but let us suppose for one second that your claim that a god exists is true… how do you know that the one you worship is the good guy? Because he says so? Also, if you believe everything in the bible is the word of your god… why do you not possess slaves? Why with all his infinite wisdom did your god not condemn slavery in his holiest of books… something we know today to be truly evil?
Of course none of that really matters as no one has actually presented a case proving the existence of any god let alone your measly power hungry, arrogant asshole of one. At least the gods of Olympus had a bit of character.
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:14 pm
FAT SAID: I don’t think anyone here is mocking you, and we definitely are not asking for your forgiveness.
Dude. I totally mocked them.
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Hey…I just came up with an equation that changes the laws of physics and makes Einstein’s theories look basic at best.
“Hey, Fat…let’s see it…..prove to us that you have this equation.”
Oh no, the burden is on you to prove that I don’t have it. Just blindly believe that the laws of physics are now wrong.
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Oh, and Digit….your comments are pretty impressive. You’re a smart dude. Whether I agree or not, I’m diggin it hard.
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Yeah. I’m pretty much brilliant.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Awesome.
July 3rd, 2009 at 10:05 am
My proof that God exists is that I have a personal relationship with Him. I have been through my fair share of junk in this world and the only thing that truly satisfies me is my faith and relationship with the Lord. the only way to know that God exists is to experience Him. The only way to experience god is to fist have enough faith that He just might exist. The only physical evidence that i have to prove Gods existence is that no matter what I have gone through, drugs, alcohol, sexual addiction, and even the loss of loved ones (21 year old sister, and a new born son) There was something inside of me that comforted me though every hard decision I have had to make to keep my faith or do it alone. It is nice to know that God knows my innermost thoughts, hurts , and desires and only He can satisfy my soul. That sir is my only proof. I am now a pastor and with everything I have been through I could have quit 1000 times but my faith stands firm. as far as the list of atheists is concerned, it saddened me to see such great individuals doing great things for the glory of themselves or the world and I just can’t help but think how much more they could have accomplished in the name of Christ. I do thank you for talking to me in a logical manner and not with the use of hurtful words or slandering the one who I call God. Kudo’s to you for that Digit! I guess this thread shows us all one thing. We can all be happy and proud to be in the USA for allowing us to display our personal religoius freedom!
HAPPY 4TH Friends!
Rev. James Patterson (Pastor Nomad)
July 3rd, 2009 at 10:13 am
“Besides, it is not the god that is offensive. It’s the actions of the believers.”
Digit I would have to agree with you on this statement 100%
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
Pastor,
You have my condolences for your losses, I to have suffered the loss of loved ones and close friends in the past.
Yet, it is not god that allows me to relate to you in this instance, but our common and shared humanity. Its that humanity that has driven many non believers to do the greater good including many names on that list you just referenced. Pray tell, where do you see evidence of this shared humanity in your god? The god that smites people for using his name in vain… the god that would torture someone for an eternity simply because they doubt his existence or question him?
On the basis of your proof of god, you’ll understand im sure if that is far from convincing. You see being a critical thinking such as I am, I need actual proof for such an outlandish claim to be believable. If thats really the only proof you can offer then you should just go away and pray to your god that we receive the same revelations you do cause thats the only way anything will change. Even then, a personal story is only good for that individual and I wouldnt expect anyone else to believe me until they had such a revelations as well.
While you’re at it though… ask yourself this… if god can smite sodom and gomora and part the red sea for moses… why cant he just come down and introduce himself to everyone so that they know he exists? Not that i’d follow a “god” such as that mind but thats a different debate entirely.
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:21 am
Pastor,
My reasons for believing and your reasons are pretty much the same, but I just can’t bring myself to take my personal reasons for believing and preach them to others. Like you said, “It’s something inside me”. I don’t think that’s enough for me to be able to tell others that what I believe is factual and truth.
I believe because I believe and there is no reason for me to get others to believe the same thing as I do. I have ZERO proof that what I believe is true, and I’ll never act like I do have proof. It’s all in my mind.
I was Christian for 15 years or so, atheist for 10 years or so, now I am what I am. One day it just hit me like a ton of bricks, and I’m reaffirmed that what I believe is true on a daily basis. So I stick with it…..but I just can’t call myself a Christian. The vast majority of “Christians” I have known in my 40 years have used Christianity and church as a crutch, a pedestal, a sword, an excuse, a wall, etc. Do something horrible on Saturday, go to church on Sunday and the slate is clean…then repeat. Unfortunately, I’ve seen it thousands of times. And the funny part about MY faith is that I am more moral and faithful than most Christians I know….. I SEE THERE ACTIONS WITH MY OWN EYES….. and these same people make the assumption that I’m a atheist heathen sinner, judge me, belittle me, and look down to me like I’m going to hell. They know nothing about my faith, and are often BAD PEOPLE. I used to know a guy that would tell his wife that he was going to “hang with his buddies” on Saturday nights. He’d snort coke, get drunk, go to a strip club, cheat on his wife (and kids for that matter), get in a fight….then go to church on Sunday. Who’s the piece of crap in his eyes? I AM!!!! Because I didn’t go to church. So while he’s doing all this horrible crap, I’m watching a movie with my wife on our sofa, saying prayers and going to bed. He and his entire church congregation of 200 people are praying for my soul the next morning? This person actually called me a SATANIST DEVIL WORSHIPPER because I wouldn’t proclaim myself a “Christian”. (I’m guessing he didn’t know Satanists and devil worshippers are opposite things?)
I admit that I have no reasoning, no facts, no explanation for my beliefs. I will never tell others that there is a God. I think a person will find out for himself or he won’t. And I’ll never disagree OR AGREE with ANYONE on religion or tell them they are right or wrong. I sure as hell won’t condescend on people for believing something I feel is wrong. I can’t…because they feel the same towards me with 100% as much proof as I have.
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
“While you’re at it though… ask yourself this… if god can smite sodom and gomora and part the red sea for moses… why cant he just come down and introduce himself to everyone so that they know he exists? Not that i’d follow a “god” such as that mind but thats a different debate entirely.”
Like I said the only way to know God is to have the faith to believe He is here. Without opening ourselves up to the possibility that God does exist and opening our spirit up to accept Him as God there will never be personal proof. As far as sodom and gamora goes God did not kill everyone there He saved Lot and his family do to Abrhams personal relationship with him and his love and petioning in prayer for his nephew. I thank you for speaking to me in a logical way!
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Its funny that you should mention opening yourself to god… because you see you don’t exactly know my background. As a matter of fact, I used to be pretty similar to yourself… I believed with all my heart and prayed most every night. Fortunately, my curiosity got the better of me and i started to question things… not out of spite towards any gods or god… but simply because i wanted to know the truth. Truth is what matters to me and its the ever going search for it that brings me here to debate you.
By the way, did you read the entire story of Lot and his family? You do know that he gave his daughters to the mob to do with as they will… and yet your god saw this man fit to save? Rather convenient that you dont mention that bit. Oh and after that he slept with both his daughters when his wife had been turned to a pillar of salt for the crime of looking back. Additionally… when is it a good excuse to say “oh i didnt kill EVERYONE… these three people i thought i’d let live cause im buddies with this dudes uncle… don’t mind the thousands of children and infants i killed there as well btw.”
Also, why is it that god was perfectly happy to do all this smiting and saving and other shenanigans in the bible yet nowadays he’s all shy refusing to come out to say hi? What’s he afraid of… i mean… he’s god right… right? Another question… why doesnt your god heal amputees?
My apologies to any readers for redundancies and poor grammar in my writing heh.
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
So, in order to know god exists, I must first believe that god exists.
Circular reasoning again.
Here’s the problem there. For the first 20 years of my life, I did believe god existed. Or I tried to. I REALLY tried to. But somewhere along the way, I realized that belief and reality are in no way related. Every time I sit down, I believe the chair will hold me. But every once in a great while, it doesn’t, and the chair breaks. My belief did not effect the moment or the fact of the chair breaking.
The absolute only thing belief is good for is to quell doubt. I believe the chair will hold me because if I doubted every chair I sat on, I’d never sit and would probably go insane. Similarly, doubt about god, life, death and everything else in the universe is quelled by belief in god. A friend once asked me if I believed in UFOs. I told him it doesn’t matter what I believe, either there are UFOs or there are not. My belief has no bearing on that fact. Either there is a god or there is not, it’s a binary status. My lack of belief and your belief have no effect on that fact (unless your god is Tinkerbell, I guess).
With that in mind, we can then apply Occam’s Razor to the question.
“… the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.”
In other words, the most likely answer to a question is probably true.
The question is, “Is there a god?”
Position 1: Yes.
Assumptions for Position 1: That there is a god.
Position 2: No.
Assumptions for Position 2: None.
I accept that Occam’s Razor may hold no water with you (just as god holds none with me). But it’s a principle that has served many people in real world application for centuries.
So, again, your assertion that in order to know god, you must first believe in god is flawed from a logical and practical perspective. Logical in that it’s circular reasoning, and practical in that I did believe, and it didn’t work. I spent years of my life professing devotion and fealty to god, but I always felt empty and insincere. I would hear testimonials, such as yours, where people were using drugs, alcohol, sex and more to fill a hole that they later discovered could only be filled by god. Well, I can tell you, after trying god, sex, drugs, alcohol and more, I have no hole to be filled. I love me, and I have no need for a god to validate that. And I’m finally content with my life now that I’ve rejected the guilt, dishonesty, self-doubt, inadequacy and lies that I grew up with. And I can’t even say I had a negative experience with god that drove me away. It was just me not liking who I was.
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:04 pm
OK, I said I was done with this thread, but I am a liar.
FatFinger and I were wondering what it is that people are doing when they come upon a post on the Fist.
I wonder what kind of response would come if we claimed that a B.L.T was created on Biblical principles – a sammich where Bacon, Lettuce, and Tomato can come together in harmony bound by the sweet mayonnaise.
Just saying that although google has increased the visibility of the Fist on the Interwebs, it seems that people seem to find us in these instances when they are looking for confirmation or confrontation of their beliefs.
July 6th, 2009 at 6:39 am
I love BLT’s!
I do deeply apologize for the way that “today’s” modern church lives in hypocrisy and it has also crept into the pulpits of America. If Christians truly acted in the love of the Gospel the world would be a better place. As a pastor it saddens me to see so many people influenced by hypocritical Christians and my prayer is that it would stop and that Christians would obey the scripture that says “if my people would turn from their wicked ways and pray I would heal their land”.
I did not come here to point fingers or judge I actually came here because of the thread title. I was preparing a sermon for this past Sunday entitled “A Lukewarm State of Emergency” I do thank you for your insight you helped get the point across to our church that we as Christians have wrongly influences our world. We have failed to show the love of Christ in a genuine way and therefore caused a lot of hurt and confusion.
As Christian’s we have a lot of work to do to restore the name of Christ and His reputation. It is the churches fault. Agreed!
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God I believe that He and God are one in the same. I believe Jesus existed on this earth based on the writings of The Bible. Therefore I put my faith in Him. That is what I believe and He instructed me to go into all of the world and proclaim the Gospel. That is my duty. I will never force Jesus on anyone, just simply show His love and invite them to partake in it.
Side note……..LOT…………
Lot and his family were saved because of the prayers of his uncle Abraham. God granted that request out of mercy and give Abraham the desire of his heart. Sodom and Gomorrah was blind to God and were so far gone into sin that I think we could not even fathom how far they slipped. Lots wife failed to listen and disobeyed. Her time was up. We see that God is a God of mercy and judgment. She had her chance but couldn’t keep her eyes and heart from the past. Lots daughters were indeed sicko’s. They manipulated their father and slept with him.
Genesis 19
32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father.”
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
He was tricked!
As far as giving the daughters over to the angry mob. I am not sure why lot would go to this extreme? I know he knew that the men (messangers) that were there were divine.
All I can think about in contrast to this was the story of Abraham willing to obey God and sacrifice his beloved son. obedience then was better than sacrifice. Maybe it was the same for Lot?
Sorry for the long post but I hope I answered some of your postings directly.
Thank you again for allowing me the privilege to here your hearts!
Sincerly,
Pastor Nomad
Hope my spelling is ok this time!
July 6th, 2009 at 11:43 am
hear = what we do when we are LISTENING.
here = where i am right now. ugh.
July 6th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Pastor: Do you stone adulterers? Do you make sure to wear only one type of cloth at a time? Would YOU sacrifice your son if God told you to?
If you answered “yes” to any of those, you’re following the Bible’s apparently infallible word, yet you’d be deemed various levels of insane, depending on which of those rules you followed.
I know you probably won’t bother replying to my post (I did, after all, call you a fucking asshole earlier), but if you’re going to use the Bible and God and Jesus, etc, as a crutch, you should read up on the rules set down hundreds and hundreds of years ago, and decide if you really want to thump that book and spout that support for something as outdated and ridiculous.
Also, not to nitpick, but if you’re going to argue on the internet, it REALLY helps if you learn where apostrophes go, and, more importantly, where they don’t go. Once is a typo, and is forgiven. You lose points for every missing or misplaced apostrophe after the first. It makes it really hard to take you seriously. Like talking to a hillbilly with no front teeth in overalls. You start out assuming he’s an ignorant fool who humps his sister and drinks moonshine. He may be a heart surgeon, but until he puts his dentures in and changes into his suit and tie, chances are, you’re not going to trust him to put a Band-Aid on you, much less perform open heart surgery.
Apostrophes indicate an abbreviation, as in don’t (do not) and can’t (can not), or possession, as in the Pastor’s book (the book belongs to the Pastor) or Thumb’s brain (brain belonging to Thumb). Remember those simple rules, and you’ll have a much sturdier internet soap box to rant about your odd God who thinks it’s funny to test people’s faith in him by demanding they kill their kids.
While we’re on the subject of you and your beliefs, what do you think of dinosaurs? Real or a plot by the scientific community to overthrow the church?
July 6th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
“I believe Jesus existed on this earth based on the writings of The Bible.”
Unquestioning blind faith is one of the great downfalls among the religious. To say that you believe in the writings of some bronze age goat herders is bad enough but to accept it without question… well.. can it get anymore silly? One should never be afraid to question things especially when it comes to ones own beliefs.
Thumb already covered much of what I was going to go over so I suppose I’ll leave it at that than.
July 6th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
I’m going to be lazy and let some other people speak for me for a while.
“It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men.”
- Carl Sagan
“It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.”
- Arthur C. Clarke
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
“Humanity without religion is like a serial killer without a chainsaw.”
- unknown
“We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.”
- H. L. Mencken
“Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions”
- Blaise Pascal
“Faith is believing something you know ain’t true.”
- Mark Twain
“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
- Benjamin Franklin
“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.”
- George Bernard Shaw
“Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men.”
- Voltaire
“No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means.”
- George Bernard Shaw
“Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.”
- unknown
“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
- Thomas Jefferson
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”
- Thomas Jefferson
“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
- James Madison
“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”
- John Adams
“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
- Benjamin Franklin
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.”
- Napoleon Bonaparte
July 6th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Pastor Nomad,
I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate you and your comments. I have never been involved in anything like this. I guess in some ways the conversation is way over my head. I am so thankful God loves me anyway. I can tell you one thing for sure, I will be praying a whole lot more and reading my bible a lot more. Yes sir, we have a lot to do to restore the name of Christ and His reputation. I tell you my heart is so heavy, not as much for these guys, but for Christians. God help us pastor Nomad.
John
July 6th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Man…
Instead of saying this is over your head, how about trying to learn and understand it.
A lot of the people who are on the other side of this discussion (read: not your side) have said that they were in your position at one point.
Please take a few minutes to consider each of those quotes. Think about them in the context of your beliefs.
JOHN: Maybe you’d be able to answer the questions I posed to the Pastor in my previous post.
July 6th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
I can’t even be bothered to read every last post here but I did see a few things directed at me.
#1 pastor as a christian I was aware scripturally that Christ had caused sin to be forgiven, THUS abolishing any “hell” at all. SHOW ME A POST CHRIST SCRIPTURE IN YOUR LITTLE BOOK THAT SAYS OTHERWISE BUDDY.
It isn’t there.
So don’t tell me where I go when I die, you haven’t the slightest clue.
You as a Pastor sir are a total joke. I want to kno what church you preach at. I will come in and sit quietly and listen to you, I won’t embarass you in front of your poor brainwashed congregation. We can have a coffee and discuss what Jesus really taught.
Such as:
Nonjudgement: you just told everyone they would go to hell if they don’t obey the “rules” THINK ABOUT IT. that’s god’s job in your book. You are fucking up big time condemning people’s actions.
Where exactly does it say one must repent to not go to hell AFTER christ?
WHO WOULD JESUS KILL? seriously, justtified killing is all good in my book, but Jesus would not allow any killing “richous” or not.
Or perhaps we could talk about the real “devil” and the lies you have been taught to make you subserviant and obedient to your EARTHLY masters, not your invisible god. Such as “whatsoever you make to be law on earth i shall uphold in heaven.” I guess god flunked out of stanford law because he just said we could make the rules in his house?
You obey your masters dear sir, and enjoy hearding their sheep. Enjoy the “Power of god” you get drunk with standing in front of them anmd directing them to what you feel is a love. When in fact your love just closes you all off to the rest of the world, closes your minds to science, fact, logic, and real LOVE.
I accept you, and I say what I say out of love. Love for the human soul, whatever that is. Love for the human’s right to just be the animals that we are and to not obey laws created to keep us subservient slaves of labor.
Think of the story of esther, she worked so hard to be perfect for god, and he rewarded her….
The people who take allegory as literal ruin the intended purpose of the original bible.
You (possibly) and others support war, you are good at heart but you feel that your god is vengeful and that any actions to stop what you see as fascism is justified… but I ask you, is not forcing your belief on others facist? Is not killing and supporting war a unchristlike activity?
9-11? turn the other cheek.
You say if I do not believe as you do that I will burn in hell? I say that you are already living in it by not allowing yourself to know who you truly are. To know god is to know ones self, are we not made in that image?… Forget your book brother, go live in the woods for 2 or 3 weeks without other church goers… Call it a vision quest. Ask your god, he will tell you that this is good for all people. Then come back and tell me if the bible holds water anymore.
Your religion is based on ancient egyptian social structure and slavery, your rules designed to enforce classism and hate. you feel that you love everyone, but you spend all your hours worrying about the gays, the jews, the muslims, the pagans, the ungodless… your life is spent living for a invisible lie that has been taught to you since the day you were born. Morals that are based on lies… you probably assume if we all didn;’t know god’s moral laws we would kill eachother, but even the most remote godless cultures don;t kill and rape eachother. But the largest christian nation in the world has dropped 2 atomic weapons.
Maybe I’ll write a book and in 2,000 years everyone will think it was the word of god. Look at the lies of scientology, then compare them to your own religion, assuming that scientology survived for 2000 years.
July 9th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
I suppose a few weeks of bible study is required to learn how to avoid answering any of those questions.
FOB=1 Organized
religion=0
July 9th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Yeah, what the hell? Did you guys just give up on us? Or are you scared to look the lies of your beliefs in the face?
July 9th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
hey you know, so long as i got them to think a bit more critically about stuff and maybe start to question things, its job done for me. i’m not out necessarily to deconvert (though that is nice) but more to get people to start down the road of thinking rationally. i dont suspect that the guys that participated in this conversation will change much in the way of their views in the near future but at least they have something to think about now
July 10th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Raffles, you probably were successful in getting me to think about a lot of things but not really in a critical sense. Your right, I probably will not change much in most, if not all of my fundamental views.
Thumb, I have not given up on you. I am always trying to learn more about my beliefs. I do keep an open mind. Like I said before, I believe a wise man changes his mind but a full never does.
ChaosFist, I am always studying the bible however not nearly enough I don’t think. I don’t even remember really concentrating much on your questions. I guess I should. Hey, I have to work for a living.
I have been searching and thinking about things. Not so much what you guys had to say but I guess I am just trying to figure out where you all are coming from. I guess it’s sort of like being at the bottom of a very high drop off and a car comes from above and crashes right in front of you. The first thing you do is look up to see exactly where the car came from…
I guess one of the reasons it is hard to really talk to you guys is because you simply do not believe the one source of information that I base all manner of wisdom on, the holy bible. I cannot prove everything in the bible anymore than you can prove or disprove many things in your lives.
I contacted a website and asked this question:
In Luke 9:5 and whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. What about today when someone will not receive your witness, should we just give up on them? I am sure I am looking at something wrong here. I know the devil will not give up if something doesn`t work the first 100 times he tries to deceive us. What does this mean? Thanks, John
This was the answer:
John,
You might be able to interpret this to say “give up.” However, I think the more likely interpretation of shaking off the dirt from the shoes is the releasing of responsibility or guilt for any judgment the city might have for rejecting God’s message.
However, it could be a direct judgment from the apostles upon that city, and it could be exactly what you said, a giving up. I am reminded of the parallel passage in Matthew 10, where Jesus says, “It will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that city [who rejects you].” Several factors were different then than they are now. The cities received signs and wonders, miracles, and irrefutable evidence of the authority of the apostles, but still said no.
Personally, I do not always “shake the dust off my feet” with everyone. But I have done so in the past. There comes a point in time when you no longer have the time to devote to everyone, and so you must ask yourself: “Who hasn’t heard the direct and clear message yet?” Sodom didn’t have a direct and clear message sent from God; millions of people on earth today still don’t. So, when someone wants to keep asking argumentative questions after hearing and seeing a clear message, I simply spend my time with others, and give him over to the responsibility of the Spirit. This is one reason I left the States, because the Message is already there. Being a missionary in Vietnam is difficult because I know that everyone I see has probably never had the chance; it’s like Sodom.
I apologize if I couldn’t give you some direct answer to this passage using other Scripture.
Also I think I need to read more about the apostle Paul. He was a lot like you guys back when his name was Saul. I have studied this before but need to look at it again. You all sort of remind me of him.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Raffles, I said full instead of fool by mistake. I guess I’m tired. been working a lot.
July 10th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
John,
You say you cannot prove everything in the bible, just as we cannot prove or disprove everything in the world around us. I say once again, you’ve missed the point.
Take evolution for example. Many Christians and theists in general are opposed to teaching evolution. Why? It stands in stark contrast to the Book of Genesis. Why do scientists favor evolution over creationism? Evidence. Mountains of it. All of that evidence points towards gradual, undirected change over time. None of it points towards god. In other words, it adds credibility to our argument while it smashes yours.
If at any point the evidence led to a different conclusion then evolution would be abandoned. Our entire world view is shaped by that which can be observed, tested and repeated. Evidence. Results. Proof.
Don’t accuse us of being unable to prove our claims. The world is full of innovations derived from the scientific process. The bible didn’t provide us with any of the technological advances that make this conversation possible. Science did.
We’re not the fools here.
July 10th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Nutxaq,
In many ways our conversations remind me of the republicans and democrats. Each one will come up with a clear cut set of facts to prove or disprove just about anything. If the republicans are inclined to believe (a) and (b) they will look up and search out everything they can to convince themselves and others they’re correct. At the same time if they are inclined to not believe (c) and (d) they will search out everything they can to prove their point. I think many times if you’re not careful you can easily be deceived in your thinking especially if you’re more concerned about being correct just for the sake of being correct.
I have seen many editorials by scientists that say the evolution theory is ridiculous and does not hold water at all. There is a weekly program on TV where a scientist talks about this and is very convincing to me. He said at one time he believed strongly in evolution but said that many of the test that were done were done incorrectly.
I am sorry but I do not believe evidence results and proof is a sure thing. It is not constant. How many times do you hear where something that was a sure thing has now been proved to be incorrect? I am from Oklahoma and around here there is a saying that if you don’t like the weather just wait a few minutes. It will change. The same goes for scientific proof. If you don’t like the proof just wait a while and someone will disprove it anyway.
July 10th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
You’re referring to confirmation bias. That’s not what is going on here. I will agree however that Republicans do like to twist the facts.
I don’t know who this “scientist” is that denies evolution, perhaps you could give us a name so we can see for ourselves. I’m willing to bet he’s just another phony with arguments that have been repeatedly discredited. There are currently no respectable people in the scientific community that deny evolution.
If you don’t believe in evidence, results, and proof then I have to ask, what do you expect to happen every time you turn on your lights? Do you think it will cause water to start pouring from your faucet? Do you think your couch will burst into flames? Do you think it will suddenly cause you to have explosive diarrhea? Or….do you suppose it will turn on whatever lights are controlled by that switch? Just like it was made to do. Just like it does every time. Evidence. Results. Proof.
July 10th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
I didn’t say I don’t believe in evidence, results, and proof. I said I don’t believe it is a sure thing in every case. Sometimes the evidence used to produce the results to come up with the proof is tampered with just like when forensic evidence we hear about in a criminal investigation has been tampered with. I will try to find the name of this scientist I was talking about and the name of the program.
July 10th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Fair enough. Unfortunately, evolution as a theory, is so big and has been approached from so many angles that it’s not up for debate. Much like the historic record of this nations founders and their intentions, or the record of religions that predate and mirror Christianity, or the tons of evidence refute the claims of Christianity and the myriad of religions it is derived from.
July 10th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
I think this encapsulates our argument quite nicely
http://ladyboyjesus.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/blasphemy.jpg
Joking aside however, the thing with the science community and scientific theory in general, is that we welcome criticism of our ideas. Science and the scientific method at is core is the pursuit of truth in the natural world around us. If a better more accurate idea is presented and agreed upon it will supplant the older ideas. Trouble is… you have to provide proof for that and one scientist giving anecdotal evidence no matter his credentials is not enough. The evidence must be based in fact and most importantly experimentally repeatable. Until such a time as that is demonstrated by your side, your arguments will never hold water with the general scientific community. The burden of proof rests solely on the creationist side of the isle.
Additionally, I think many on the creationist side have a faulty understanding of the scientific definition of the word “theory”. Unlike in its social context where it typically is akin to having an “idea” about something the scientific definition is quite different. Rather than just rehashing whats already written, here’s a wikipedia page which goes into some detail regarding the scientific definition of theory. Being a student of history i wouldnt normally recommend relying on wikipedia for such things but in current circumstances it shall suffice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
Oh one more thing, don’t equate the creationist/evolution debate to republicans and democrats. In our debate, the sides are not in any way even and to suggest that they are is misleading.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Maybe, instead of making it look like I was just asking Mr. Pastor.
JOHN (or anyone else claiming that the bible is literally THE WORD OF GOD): Do you stone adulterers? Do you make sure to wear only one type of cloth at a time? Would YOU sacrifice your son if God told you to?
July 10th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
nutxaq and John: you should both go sign up at http://www.gravatar.com/ so we can all see pretty pictures next to your contributions to this comment series that’s somehow beaten the FIST record set by McRorie.
At least there are more players this time around.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Oh! One more question for you John…
Is this the guy you’ve been watching?
http://www.fistofblog.com/2007/04/30/fist-of-divine-proof/
July 11th, 2009 at 12:56 am
Tits. Thanks thumb.
July 11th, 2009 at 6:47 am
Raffles, I also believe Science and the scientific method at its core is in most cases the pursuit of truth in the natural world around us. That does not mean it is without error in some cases and that doesn’t mean that some scientists might simply want to have you believe what they think when they really cannot prove it. I’m sure that you believe that also. That is why you said science at its core. I’m sure we both believe the main core of scientists is sincere for the most part. However just because someone is a scientist and has their name printed all over the place with their claims doesn’t mean the evidence they are showing is necessarily accurate even if a group of them are sticking together.
I understand what you are saying, that the evidence must be based in fact and most importantly experimentally repeatable. I’m sure most try to, however when you look at all the times food or prescription drugs are recalled after a period of time because they are not safe when many scientists agreed together otherwise.
There are many times when a so called proven theory has to be readjusted because a scientist proved there was an error the first time. That is one thing, but there are times when another scientist proves the first scientist completely wrong. I watched a documentary the other day about the life of a black scientist. The documentary was full of times in his life when he was rushed to come to a conclusion about something. He was rushed for different reasons. Sometimes it was to save his job and other times it was to help him move up the ladder. Sometimes it was because he had a passion for scientific exploration. In the documentary other scientists were doing the same thing. One scientist would prove another scientist wrong over and over. Not anything wrong with that. I’m simply saying just because someone has made their proven point that doesn’t mean it’s the end of the story. Sometimes we are missing the rest of the story and sometimes we are missing the other side of the story.
July 11th, 2009 at 9:07 am
John,
I believe you may be missing the point I was making here. You see, science welcomes the criticism of its ideas… its the arena in which ideas battle it out for supremacy wherein the strongest most well supported (read: legitimate, accurate) notions are victorious. Errors in our ideas are corrected in just this manner. Now, consider for a moment the fact that Evolution has been in this arena for well over a century… yet it still stands. Clearly this demonstrates its validity. Sure there are minor quibbles over very specific portions of it such as how one tiny piece of DNA from a specific species evolved into another but the underlying premise is accepted the world over by scientists. That said however, if a better more plausible idea were to present itself and to be proven, the scientific community would accept it along with people such as myself.
Creationism and indeed bible literalism are the exact opposite of this. Far from being accepted by scientists and rational thinkers, its panned by virtually everyone possessing a modicum of credibility. In addition to that, unlike science wherein no idea is ever safe from scrutiny, any question regarding the legitimacy of the bible is immediately tagged as blasphemy which is complete bollocks. If you’re not permitted to question something, how can you be expected to test and prove its legitimacy? Frauds and bad ideas never last in science because they are put to the test as it should be with all ideas.
If scientists and rational thinkers operated as creationists do, those prescription drugs you mentioned would never be pulled off store shelves. Why… because no one would ever question them. If you genuinely believe the bible and creationism to be true and that they should replace current accepted ideas in our community, fine… submit them to the scientific/rational discourse all other ideas must do to prove it. I’m sure that if you did legitimately and critically question the bible and your beliefs, you’d find that they really don’t hold any water, but you don’t, so you won’t.
July 11th, 2009 at 9:23 am
I have both the Gold and the Silver for Comments.
-Fat
July 11th, 2009 at 10:25 am
So… DO you stone adulterers, John? WOULD you kill your kid (or anyone, for that matter) if you thought God was asking you to? Have you worn more than one type of cloth since the day you decided the Bible is the infallible word of God?
You and the pastor are having a mighty hard time answering these questions.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Raffles,
I ‘m not trying to argue. I guess my line of reasoning is somewhat different than most. I have to admit I’m somewhere between hardheaded and can’t know better.
I love scientists. We would still be in the dark ages if not for them. I still say there is a lot of difference between a better more plausible idea and just being flat out wrong and a lot of the time scientists are. If one scientist can be wrong once then ten scientists can be wrong ten times. I’m not talking about an insignificant error but just flat out wrong.
As far as the Bible, there is a big difference in questioning its legitimacy and questioning some scripture in the Bible. You sort of make it sound like that if you believe in creationism you don’t believe in science or the questioning of anything. There is a lot of Bible believing scientist out there.
Quite a few scientists support creation theory. This places them out of step with the mainstream scientists who believe in evolution. It is a monumental disagreement. One side or the other has got to be wrong, and not just slightly wrong but disastrously wrong.
Not all of the scientists who support creation theory are willing to admit it for fear of criticism.
Thumb,
I don’t stone adulterers. I don’t believe God would ask me to kill my kid or anyone else. I have worn many types of cloth.
July 11th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
John,
A. Name me a scientist that believes in literal creationism and I’ll show you an individual that is discredited in the field of Evolution or has nothing at all to do with it. The discovery institute does not count as a legitimate scientific institution btw. And I promise you, the overwhelming majority of scientists in other fields (such as physics, chemistry, astronomy etc.) also do not believe in literal creationism. At most you can maybe find a handful of pantheists or deists.
B. If by saying that scientists can be wrong you are insinuating that Evolution is wrong, my friend you are severely mistaken. Yes many a scientist has been wrong before but do you honestly believe that no one would’ve corrected or at least proposed a half way decent alternative within the last century and a half? Do you not understand that these fields are constantly being studied by thousands of scientists around the world? Evolutionary Theory has progressed greatly since the days of Darwin. We now have genetic evidence that no one in Darwin’s time could’ve dreamt of all of which adds yet more to our greater understanding of evolution. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Pray tell, where is your proof?
Again I say, if you’re ideas are superior, submit them to scientific inquiry and see how they hold up… I guarantee they won’t last long.
C. Do you believe the bible is the literal word of god sent down to you through his various messengers and profits? If so… then by disregarding anything in there as unnecessary are you not challenging the legitimacy of your god? If you challenge on thing in the bible, you challenge all of it if you’re a literalist.
July 11th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
JOHN: You are picking and choosing which bits of the Bible to follow. I have a hard time giving you any credit now.
It must be convenient to fall back on only the good parts of a book like that.
Congratulations on your illogical coping mechanism, and extreme gullibility. Willful ignorance is apparently your lot in life, and although I feel bad for you, that’s your choice. Of course, you can blame it on God instead of yourself. That’s a mighty nice way to skip out on responsibility.
July 11th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
John: Here are some other things to consider when you’re deciding if you want to believe every word in the Bible or not.
I split it out into it’s own post because I believe the scary truth shouldn’t be relegated to the comments section of a largely-unrelated post (even if it IS the most-commented post on our humble site).
Bible Rules. WARNING: there are a lot of things you can be killed for, according to God.
July 12th, 2009 at 6:17 am
Raffles, Thumb, Nutxaq, ChaosFist, Digit, Fatfinger, TriggerFinger-BANG!,TFB!, and Karma,
I do not have and you do not have all the answers concerning this life. There is a lot of information out there, on line and everywhere else. We can quote it, think about it, write about it, copy and paste it. In Oklahoma we might say talk about it till the cows come home. You all keep saying I miss the point and sometimes I guess I do but you really make it difficult when you really won’t listen when I quote the Bible.
I love you guys but I don’t know how to articulate what I would like to say without quoting the Bible. You are all so correct in that I am not able to prove to you my belief in the word of God. I can tell you this. Something happened to me the day I accepted Christ as my personal Savior. It didn’t make all my problems go away. If I stub my toe it still hurts. I still have to get up and go to work but with a peace I never knew before. If you have never experienced this, I can understand how you might feel; especially living in the world we live in today. When your clothes dryer shuts off, you open the dryer door, you can see the clothes but you still don’t know if they’re dry and ready to use until you touch them. When you look at THE CHURCH, meaning all born again Christians, no wonder you have doubt in your minds. I have to say that in my opinion and I include myself, we are a sad bunch.
I am always looking for answers concerning this life, but for now I will continue to believe that the Holy Bible is the true and infallible word of God almighty, the creator of all things whether I can prove it to you or not.
July 12th, 2009 at 7:36 am
John,
Put simply, I never claimed to have all the answers and im sure everyone else who has spoken to you here and elsewhere would say the same. As a matter of fact, I’m completely ok with using the words “I don’t know” when it comes to explaining a lot of things… much unlike yourself i’m sure. You see… whenever you encounter something you can’t explain, your immediate fall back whether you admit it or not is to say god did it. That right there has been what has stifled not only yourself but all of humanity for its entire history. Its people that weren’t satisfied with the explanation that god did it that have advanced our species to where it is now. That is also why I hold in contempt people that would foist their belief of god on others… especially upon our school system and government where it does not belong.
You can quote the bible till your figurative cows come home all you want, that won’t make you anymore believable. The bible is merely one book among many, the only reason you believe it as opposed to the koran is more than likely because you were raised around christians. Obviously since you lack the ability to think for yourself your outcome probably would’ve been different otherwise. Also, in case you hadn’t noticed, many of the writers here are former christians… so we know the passages you quote from the bible. Again, I listen and indeed hear what you’re saying, but no of it is convincing. Can you legitimately say the same? I think not since you disregard the contradictions in your argument that we have pointed out here.
You say the bible is the true perfect word of your god… yet you do not keep slaves, you do not sell your children into slavery and you do not stone someone for working on the sabbath. That’s merely three items in the bible, straight from your creator to your ear. Explain to me how you can say the bible is perfect and then not do what it tells you?
I would encourage you to go to this website and check out the videos here… but i doubt you will. Still if anyone else is interested its fun to watch.
http://www.atheist-experience.com/
July 12th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Oh one more thing, since you take the bible literally, next time you get sick, all you’re allowed to do is pray to get better. Since everything else available to make you better came about without use of the bible or indeed against the very wishes and prescriptions of the bible and its authors you shouldn’t use anything else lest you taste the wrath of your imagined creator being person.
July 12th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
John,
Perhaps the peaceful feeling you claim to experience since embracing Christ is the result of shutting out difficult questions. They say ignorance is bliss. I typically only feel that way when I’m drunk or have eaten a bunch of mushrooms.
July 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Here’s an article about science versus belief.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/religion/post/2009/07/68494044/1
July 12th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
I can tell you this. Something happened to me the day I accepted Christ as my personal Savior.
That I believe because it happened to me too.
The mind is capable of amazing things. Self hypnosis, somatic states, alpha, beta, delta and gamma waves. What you experienced was a state of self induced hysteria. Most cultures in the world have that to one degree or another. Spirit quests, sweat lodges, meditation and so on. God enters into the mix in as much as it’s difficult to contextualize this to an uneducated mind.
When your clothes dryer shuts off, you open the dryer door, you can see the clothes but you still don’t know if they’re dry and ready to use until you touch them.
EXACTLY!! To the uneducated mind, some otherwordly force was at work! To you and me, we know that there’s an electric power plant somewhere sending AC power through power lines to your house which the dryer utilizes to spin the drum, heat some coils and turn a fan, thus drying the clothes. You have JUST made my point for me! With a little context and understanding, god just melts away into logic and reality. This is why probably you and many other christians shy away from science and logic; it threatens your faith. Well, if your faith is strong and true, you should be able to withstand the damning onslaught of reality.
July 13th, 2009 at 3:47 am
On two readily memorable occasions, I could’ve sworn on my life that there was “something else” out there, and I believed the shit out of it. Once, I was under the influence of psychedelics, and the second time I had spent a week in Slovakia ministering to youth in the name of nondenominational Jesus.
I’m not sure if this is backed by previous scientific experimentation, but I have this feeling that the mental pathways in the brain that control a “religious experience” are simply that, mental pathways. A series of neurons and axons that, given the correct stimuli, will cause the brain to become enveloped with a sense of colossal magnitude and otherworldly importance.
I’m probably younger and perhaps not as adept at higher levels of thinking than most of you, but all y’all make good arguments. And John, your blind faith is commendable. While I’d never wish it for myself, I can understand the power that Christ et al have in your life. If you’re looking for meaning and believe you have found it, good on yer, mate.
Pastor, you’re a dreideldick, though.
July 13th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Digit, like I said before I’m OK with science. I love science. Science does not threaten my faith. I made a comment one time on line concerning my beliefs and someone said that’s what happens when the Bible is placed in the hands of a fool. He either didn’t believe in the Bible or he didn’t like what I had to say. Maybe he didn’t know if what I said came out of the Bible period. Maybe he knew what I said was in the Bible but thought that I was misinterpreting the scripture. I don’t know. But if someone doesn’t believe in evolution, that does not mean they don’t believe in science. I don’t believe in all interpretations of every scripture in the Bible and I don’t believe in everything every scientist has to say.
Hey Knuckle, Man that was over my head. Come back down a little bit. This is Monday Guy..
July 13th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Hey John…
These are hard to misinterpret:
http://www.fistofblog.com/2009/07/11/bible-rules/
I think you should probably say that you believe in the parts of the bible that are convenient for you.
Unless, you know, you are a long-haired hippie who doesn’t eat shellfish and who thinks it’s okay to own slaves.
July 13th, 2009 at 11:02 pm
So far John…
We are like republicans and democrats?
Not at all, those two factions have the same things in mind and merely posture to create mass appeal. Kind of like religion, but nothing like this debate.
And you are somehow taking this as the online equivalent of sodom. You act like there are “signs” all around. These are delusions of religious mania.
Also, if you actually read my post you will see that I do not claim to have the answers, merely that your religion is founded on stories much much older than jesus.
If you actually did any studying it would become painfully obvious that the story of jesus repeats throughout religious “history.” many times before christ.
Instead you are content to chalk this all up to the devil, and some poor kids in a crashing car. Here’s the thing man, you’re the one in the morality wagon going over the cliff of self fufillment. Enjoy exploding in that ball of self assured fear of death and confused explanations to put you to sleep at night.
I don’t want to preach science or statistics. that can be made up and manipulated like everything else has been for some time. I want to instill some doubt and hopefully liberate your mind from the idea of guilt and sin that you have been forced into feeling. Get rid of it man, live your life and be a human.
July 14th, 2009 at 2:37 am
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing
made that was made.
1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended
it not.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved.
I love you guys and hope the best for you.
see ya. John
July 14th, 2009 at 2:48 am
Pfffft. Weak, John, weak.
July 14th, 2009 at 8:21 am
A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above the master (Matt. 10:24)
Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their allowance of food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. (Matt. 24:45-46)
When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. (Exod. 21:20-21)
To name just a few… and can you really sacrifice yourself to yourself when you’re immortal anyways? Doesn’t that kinda take away from the significance of it?
July 14th, 2009 at 8:39 am
The house stood on a slight rise just on the edge of the village. It stood on its own and looked out over a broad spread of West Country farmland. Not a remarkable house by any means—it was about thirty years old, squattish, squarish, made of brick, and had four windows set in the front of a size and proportion which more or less exactly failed to please the eye.
The only person for whom the house was in any way special was Arthur Dent, and that was only because it happened to be the one he lived in. He had lived in it for about three years, ever since he had moved out of London because it made him nervous and irritable. He was about thirty as well, tall, dark-haired and never quite at ease with himself. The thing that used to worry him most was the fact that people always used to ask him what he was looking so worried about. He worked in local radio which he always used to tell his friends was a lot more interesting than they probably thought. It was, too—most of his friends worked in advertising.
On Wednesday night it had rained very heavily, the lane was wet and muddy, but the Thursday morning sun was bright and clear as it shone on Arthur Dent’s house for what was to be the last time.
It hadn’t properly registered yet with Arthur that the council wanted to knock it down and build a bypass instead.
I CAN QUOTE BOOKS TOO!!
P.S. I kinda want a slave now.
July 14th, 2009 at 9:12 am
1:1B In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was a language invented by men so they could communicate without clubbing each other, and the
Word was God, mostly because oog and nog hadn’t come up with any other better syllables.
1:2B The same was in the beginning with God. A invented idea of the past.
1:3B All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing
made that was made. This of course includes all evil, and wrong, making “god” truly a idiot word for “everything.”
1:4B In him was life; and the life was the light of men, and other vague random bullshit that was impossible to translate from hebrew to “sheep.”
1:5B And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended
it not. For darkness represents evil in the early times of the bible, and irrational fear was needed for contrast.
3:16B For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life. Like Blade, and the other vampires in hollywood movies. Although christians die every day, in all three sensed of the hebrew conjugation of “death.” The soul, the mind, and the body.
3:17B For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved.
Saved from having self reliance, self esteem, and a life of freedom free from tyrants like a invisible god and ted turner.
I love you guys and hope the best for you.
see ya. John
Love you too John, Good luck with the whole religion thing, I hope you will someday see the control mechanisms designed to fracture your humanity and make you need to believe in this. Don’t get me wrong, the christian god is a beautiful thing in the right light, but the ideas of sin, hell, and a lot of the other bull the church invented long after jesus died are a joke, and have killed any credibility the church had.
July 14th, 2009 at 9:44 am
I don’t understand how anyone can read the following verses from Revelation and forget the negatives (and things medern society shuns) found in the Bible. I take these passages to mean that the Bible is 100% truth, word for word, and you do not do anything with these words other than take them 100% literally as God commands. …and you leave NOTHING out in your following of this book. NOTHING. Shellfish, Slavery, Homosexuality, EVERYTHING.
REV 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
July 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am
This is precisely why I love too visit this site… Not because I have any desire to join this conversation… More so, reading your responses just solidified one belief I have formed, which is you guys rock…You are all humorous and clever. Digit.. Very intelligent debate. I applauded you.
Today I saw Christ in my Bologna sandwich…. I ate it… now I am full of bologna much like the bible.
July 14th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Thank you, my dear. I wasn’t using my brain for anything else productive, so it seemed like a good idea to work it out here.
That also seems very Catholic with the bologna sandwich. Bologna of Christ. When you’re 13 you get your First Bologna Communion.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Chaos fist
Mathew 7:13-14
13″Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
True that Christ forgives and canceled out hell for some….. so long as you stay on the path to righteousness. (Only a few find it)
July 15th, 2009 at 10:07 am
narrow minded path to ridiculous
[IMG]http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c185/lttlelindsey/free-thinker-satans-slave1.jpg[/IMG]
July 15th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Chaosfist
Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
2 Corinthians 12:21
I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
Hebrews 6:6
if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Revelation 2:5
Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
# Revelation 2:21
I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
Revelation 2:20-22 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
# Revelation 2:22
So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.
Revelation 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
Revelation 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Revelation 16:11
and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
Just some quotes from “my little book”
Notice the post Jesus addresses.
Anything I say to you dear sir will just result in criticism and disrespect. I have not judged no one. By re-reading the posts you could clearly see that I have been the target here not the other way around. You are guilty of what you claim me to be “a judge” just as you think christians don’t accept you for who you are you have not accepted those of us christians who are true and real.
Blessings,
Pastor
July 15th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Thank you John!
July 15th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Dear Pastor Nomad (and John, if you’re still lurking),
I still haven’t seen either of you tell us how you reconcile the parts of the bible that I know you don’t follow. I would have infinitely more respect for your position if you could explain to me how you can think that every word of the bible must be followed, and, in this modern day and age, follow these ones:
http://www.fistofblog.com/2009/07/11/bible-rules/
I really am curious. Do you just pretend these parts doesn’t exist? Do you excuse them by saying that it was a different time? Do you just turn a blind eye to the WORD OF GOD? So far, that’s what i’m assuming. Please prove me wrong and explain to us what you think of those little bits.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:28 am
I am not avoiding your questions I have been busy working.
Thumb,
You are a great English teacher. My writing skills are usually for just me to read and understand. (sermon notes)I did apologize for my spelling errors in a previous post. I am glad you found it necessary to point out my faults in spelling though. Thank you for you kind advice. (other cheek turned)
The dimensions of Noah’s Ark were big enough to hold dinosaurs. I believe they roamed the earth.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Pastor Nomad/John,
Do either of you individuals personally believe that we as people that disagree with your world view DESERVE to burn and be tortured in hell for eternity for that simple disagreement? I’m not asking you for what the bible says on that issue… but what YOU yourself believe.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Nomad,
Are you SERIOUS?!?! Dinosaurs on the ark? Lol now that’s rich! Where’s your proof? You show me actual genuine hard evidence and then we’ll talk about the dimensions of noahs rubber dingy
July 15th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Thanks for your postings John now might I suggest we go outside the gate and simultaneously pound the dust from our sandals?
I do not throw stones, I don’t have too kill anyone or conform to the religious ceremony’s of the old testament. Jesus came and is the atoning sacrifice for all sin. When He rose from the dead the veil was torn in half and God is fully accessible to man.
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
Thanks for the conversation brothers and sisters. Your insight has opened my eyes even wider that we are in fact living in the last days.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:55 am
LOL… One dinosaur perhaps, and a small one at that.
Anyway, You are mixing old and new testament quotes on repentance. The old testament was killed the moment Jesus walked onto the scene.
Your statements on sinful rebellion just proves to me that you believe in earthly masters, governments, and the lies you were brainwashed with that dictate authority is right. You believe in a god who is just a allegory for authority. I however do not believe in authority. I believe in morals, love, sharing, caring for your fellow man…. Essentially I believe everything that Jesus taught, and not a word that was written in the bible. I believe that “God” made me with the capacity to think for myself, and to take any path in life that feels right. In christiantiy you are told that the proof of god is already in you, in the morals you instinctually know. Thereby making ignorance without repenting a sin in your old testament. You are quoting a lot of scripture and I would be willing to bet although you obviously know the book well that you do not speak hebrew and can not properly translate what your book actually says.
Debating the legitimacy of the bible with you is totally pointless though. You are still not answering any of the questions that have been asked. And this sandbagging about “working” is silly. If you had time to search all the quotes on repentance and paste them I am sure you could answer all of these extremely common questions without looking up an “answer.” Also I didn’t get that invite to your church. When I was attending church everyone was welcome to come and listen to the word, I guess now it is an exclusive club. Do you happen to be a free mason as well?
July 15th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Well, I’m not sure that taking credit for turning the other cheek is exactly following the spirit of the Bible, but whatever.
So because Jesus died, you can ignore the word of God that you base your faith on? That’s some mighty powerful witchcraft the Riz has.
Wait. You just told us that dinosaurs and humans were not only on earth at the same time, but that Noah brought some tame T Rexes onboard his ship? Even if God tamed them, that’s insane.
I’m not talking to you any more, Pastor. That’s too dumb, and I refuse to associate with such a retarded idea.
If Pastor Nomad is one of our friends playing a joke, congratulations, you win.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am
I believe God is a God of mercy and judgment. He said hell was created for the devil and his angels not humans. God does not send humans to hell humans who are unrepentant make their own decision to go there. I am also not leaving out those christians who’s actions cause someone to stumble. They will pay too. We all deserve hell but in Gods mercy He delivers us. i personally think atheism happens when someone just plain does not like the fact that there is someone over them in authority. It is not the fact that God does not exist it is the idea that I can do things on my own without a higher power. The same idea that got satan kicked out of heaven. (who by the way even believes God exists too)
I will applaud you on one thing. you have chosen to take a side and do not ride the fence.
God says “I would rather you be cold than lukewarm”
Blessings,
Pastor
July 15th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Dinosaur site.
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/dino_ark.html
Could be?
July 15th, 2009 at 11:17 am
WOW! Pastor Nomad… that link is really absurd. You really believe that Noah had a giant Ark with little tiny dinasaurs on it…. ?
I mean wow… I am befuddled by your ability to believe such doubachery of the truth,absolutely stupified.
Did jesus ride the dinasaurs?
July 15th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Littlefinger,
It could be scientifically possible right? That is the hot topic isn’t it? If the dimensions of the Ark as stated were correct, it could work. Jesus rode a donkey.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Do donkeys have huge fucking claws?!
July 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Pastor we can finish this debate when someone finds “Noah’s Ark”.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Nomad,
If you truly believe that an individual who for the simple “sin” of doubting due to lack of proof should burn in hell for all eternity, than you my friend are an immoral bastard. Your god is so fucking vain that he needs you to blindly believe in him or you get tortured no matter how great a person you may have been on this earth? An all powerful creator god is worse than an attention whore of a high school cheerleader when it comes to needing friends… talk about petty. Funny how your “god” exhibits all the worse traits of humanity.
Also that website brings new meaning to the phrase “I think we’re going to need a bigger boat”. And no it is not scientifically possible as dinosaurs and humans did at no time in history cohabitate on this planet.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Noah’s Ark. Wow.
Did you know there would have to be 5000 species of breeding pairs of frogs ALONE on that boat? JUST FROGS would take up an enormous amount of room on that boat.
Let’s not get into the 700 discovered species of dino’s that you’d have to pair up to FOURTEEN HUNDRED LARGE REPTILES on one boat. ..and what about the species that were 150 feet long and weighed 200 tons?!?!! AND YOU HAVE TO PUT TWO OF EACH SPECIES ON ONE BOAT!!!!
GAH!
July 15th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
I just added up the weight of the 10 largest species of known dinos.
Paired up, these 10 species alone would put almost 4 million pounds of lizard on that little boat.
What’s the other 690 species gonna weigh?
Then add the 5000 species of JUST MAMMALS. Elephants, Hippos, etc.
A FLEET of steel aircraft carriers couldn’t come close to pulling of what that little wooden boat did.
..and we all saw what a T-Rex can do to a goat in Jurassic Park, right?
Here comes the divine intervention tangent?
July 15th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
unfortunately fatfinger, one can not use logic to refute that which was not arrived at logically… as im sure Mr. Nomad will soon demonstrate for us if he/she elects to stay around.
July 15th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
True.
Speaking of…anyone ever read the thing some guy wrote the on physics of the “world flood”?
The amount of water it would take to “flood the earth” would weigh so much that the earth would heat up and liquify. The entire earth would turn molten. Pretty cool, I’ll try to find it.
-Fat
July 15th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Fat: you’ve gotta look at the link he posted. It’s the most retarded thing in the whole world. Made me so mad, I wanted to punch my computer and then gouge out my eyes.
I’m ashamed to be in the same race as people who would seriously make these claims.
The sky is green. Why? Because I wrote that it is on a slip of paper, duh!
Anyway, you’ve apparently got to add up the weights of every animal’s baby. And then deduct God’s magical hand.
Wait. Don’t bother. Dinosaurs were dead millions of years before mankind could build a boat. And also, the world didn’t flood. And don’t forget that Pastor Fucking Nomad just showed us that he’s nothing more than a sideshow curiosity, who should be committed.
Intelligent design is stupid. So is this Flintstones version of life a couple thousand years ago.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
I have had enough…I am now sending this thread in all it’s glory to the members of the Westboro Baptist Church. I am certain that within days, they will descend upon on this site and our little town to protest the Godlessness found on this site.
For those of you who do not know, these folks were featured in the movie Bruno, and can be found here….
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
You have been warned…
July 15th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Thanks TFB! Everybody get ready for a crashed fist.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
I was kidding…
For the sake of discussion though, I wonder which Bible the Pastor is reading. I am making a naive assumption that it is some form of translated text. It could be any of these versions—
New International Version (NIV), New American Standard Bible, International Standard Version, GOD’S word translation, King James Bible, American King James Bible, Bible in Basic English, ect…
There are other versions as well, all of which can be found at http://bible.cc/
It is curious to see the difference in language and how quickly the interpretation of a passage can change.
Proverbs 15:2
“The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.”
I know which side I am on.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Dammit, Thumb…I just looked at that dino-ark link. My pancreas just exploded.
I love the pictures of 150 foot long dinosaurs half the size of 20 foot long elephants.
..and you are wrong about dinos living millions of years before mammals. Haven’t you seen the Flintstones?
July 15th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Here is a link to Eddie Izzard and his take on God, dinosaurs, Jesus, ect…
There are other clips too, but this is pretty good…(11 min. but worth it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60T_6ubNFp4
July 15th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Re: Dinos on the ark –
Could be?
Could not.
Categorically not.
To even entertain the notion seriously bespeaks a feeble mind.
Pastor Nomad, I’m saying this as a compassionate human who actually cares about your well being.
Stop. Consider the implications of what you’re saying when you imply dinosaurs could have been on Noah’s Ark. What you say not only flies in the face of all logic, science and common sense, it makes you seem like a dunce.
I happen to think marijuana should be legalized. It’s less harmful than alcohol, it was criminalized in the 30s to protect the lumber industry, it has literally dozens of uses as a drug and an industrial/agricultural product. The drug war has forced criminal elements into our nation which would be eliminated if it was legal to buy marijuana. Quite literally about 80% of the people I know have tried it, and none of them have ruined their lives, in fact some are wildly successful and productive.
HOWEVER!!! When I see some dredlocked, stanky burnout trustafarian at a pro-hemp rally smoking out of a tie dyed bong with a “Legalize It” sticker on their ratty corduroy jacket, I want to SLAP THEM SILLY!! Extremist nutjobs like that are the reason the marijuana legalization movement can be marginalized. Marginal people make marginal causes.
Pastor Nomad, by making demonstrably false and downright silly comments like dinosaurs were on Noah’s Ark, you’ve just given EVERY logical and intelligent person permission to dismiss EVERYTHING else you say. You’ve demonstrated that your grasp on reality is warped, and that you speak with no authority on any other subject because you apply your diminished reasoning to everything.
You have just proven yourself a simpleton. I say that not as an insult, merely as a fact.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Ugh!!! I can no longer visit this thread. I have been so disturbed since I clicked that damn link. Unbelieveable… have fun guys…
Insert face palm, shake head and utter “oh the humanity”
July 16th, 2009 at 10:24 am
HAHAAH… Ok you also believe that “mountains” we not taller than 25 to 50 feet back then?…
Holy shit that is so ridiculous. I am with little finger up there, This is beyond ridiculous…
Also you posted every damn mention of the word repent in the bible, and didn’t do me the service of pointing out any that JESUS
July 16th, 2009 at 10:38 am
….excuse the post…
You didn’t even point out the ones Jesus said… If Jesus didn’t say any of them you proved my point, and you are preaching old testament judiasm NOT christianity.
The bible and dinosaurs is so ridiculous, and that webpage was bullshit, the scripture calls mountains 20 feet tall…which would be less than 1/3 th eheight of the ark itself… wait a second, maybe he shoul dhave built a stilt tikki bar and served drinks the whole flood.
I guess this is when the earth was flat and you sailed off the edge if you went too far?
I won’t even bother arguing on this one, it’s so completely asenine and uneducated to believe a 450X75X300 foot boat could be constructed by one man in a lifetime alone…… hewn by hand of hardwood…. BULL.
Let alone the hundreds of thousands of species of animals that wouldn’t fit in there together, and the preposterous idea of dinosaurs and humans co-existing. We have evidence for these things, and the bible makes no mention of dinosaurs, Why the fuck do you guys have to just make shit up to explain away the “truth of life?”
Oh right, life is easier when you lie to yourself. That’s a mental illness you know.
I appologize if this seems attacking or insulting, but it makes me sad to see people so confused and so resistant to any open minded thought. I appreciate your strength in your faith, but do please stick to your bible, at least when you use the incorrect information in it you can cite it as a passage. Sure it makes you look ignorant… but damn, it beats the hell out of any random bullshit you can find on google.
July 16th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Oh God I can’t stop obsessing over dinasaurs and the Ark… It’s like a train wreck….
Here are a few more websites that explain how and why they believe dinasaurs were on the ark.. oh and apparently the world is only 6000 years old… ugh
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2000/04/03/dinosaurs-on-noahs-ark
http://toptenproofs.com/article_dinosaurs.php
July 16th, 2009 at 11:14 am
no worries little finger, the next great scientific discoveries will first be denied, and then when the faith is totally crumbing again they will invent some more crap to teach small children as if it was fact. Those children will grow up to realize that there is truth elsewhere in the world and they have been taught lies.
Then they will follow in the highly intelligent digit’s footsteps and get away from the church.
I wish I was as smart as digit, I actually went to church as an adult, It wasn’t forced on me as a kid. I had to work it out myself. Ah yes, the joy of seeking answers when you feel so small and insignificant.
I don’t know a damn thing still, perhaps god exists, but pretending to understand anything about god is presumptuous to me.
July 16th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I find it funny how some of you can view me as illogical and not intellectual and out of the same slanderous accusation lack the creativity to speak with proper words and let loose of the foul vulgarities. That in it self shows a lack of moral education. The biggest part of the debate that I think is missing here is the fact that most of you think there is no God and that is understandable that you then can deem dinosaurs in the ark impossible or even a ark full of animals impossible. I stand on the believe that through my God all things are possible and he can do all things.
As far as what translation I read I quoted the NIV. I do understand the allegiance to the King James but really unless you read Greek or Hebrew your in the same boat!
Dinosaurs in the ark is way more out there compared to a Big bang in the sky or a monkey turning into a man! The miracles of God still happen today but I have NEVER seen a monkey turn into a man or anything else ever form from an explosion?
This past Sunday I saw with my own eyes a 35 year old woman healed of blindness and and her arm restored and no longer needs surgery. I guess that’s just self healing or maybe our regenerative instincts to create a new body part like our relative the earth worm or the starfish?
I apologize if this is offensive and I do not wish to just sling dirt back and forth. I did just google the dinosaur thing but…. I do believe in the possibility that they were on the ark. There are MUCH better sites out there that suggest this theory.
I have withstood a ton of criticism here and I know I am the one stayed for the fun but could you answer this for me?
What if The Bible is true? What if God is real? How does that effect you? What if it is not? How does that effect me?
Blessings,
Pastor Nomad
July 16th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Littlefinger,
Even if they found the ark it would not change a thing. It would be rejected just like The Word of God is rejected.
Curious……..Do you have any past religious roots?
July 16th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
This will be my last post to this thread as I will not try to reason with those unable to reason. Einstein said it best
“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
I went to church every Sunday growing up. My Parents still do so does my very best friend in the whole world. I dreamed of being a pastor when I was young. It was not until my mid Twenties that I began to question my faith. I would like to attribute much of my enlightenment to my formal education and my naturally logical mind (yeah I just gave myself props). I have questioned my faith for years.
My Conclusion- I do not believe the bible. I will not get into a debate about faith. I am merely stating that I do not believe the bible.
My mind has led me to the conclusion that I will never know while on this Earth if there is a GOD. I will not claim that there is or is not a supreme being. As far as I am concerned there is NO proof of your GOD! NONE… Did you read my link I posted for you as I read yours? Take some time and read that link and you will understand my position. I have nothing to prove to you I will not waste my time.
Proof on the other hand sir is in the science. Science proves your dinosaur theory wrong. But you are clearly blinded by faith which will hinder you from seeing the truth.
I have chosen Atheism because I am sick of the blinders and I am smart enough to know I can take them off. I refuse to be a slave to your ignorant Bureaucracy.
I will say this… The most enlightened moment of my entire life was the day I learned I don’t know shit…
Good day sir… I do not come here to debate religion. I come here for kicks and this is NOT a kick.
July 16th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
a lack of moral education??
BINGO education, god didn’t instill morals into us because he doesn’t exist it must be taught.
Swearing offends you, that’s a bummer, I don’t mind it a bit, its an exclamation point on my fuckin sentence.
I do not read much greek or hebrew, however when I was a member of the church I studied direct translations with my pastor and two biblical scholars who did read and speak hebrew. There are many words in hebrew that are translated to english that have more than one meaning, see my post about “death/kill” above and it’s 3 meanings for a very good example, seing as it one of the ten commandments.
Seeing is believing? no I have not seen a monkey turn into a man, evolution takes thousands of years… years longer than christians seem to think the earth is. That has been proven over and over again.
In fact portions of the ark have supposidly been found. If you were open minded enough to watch scientific programs on discovery you might know that.
HEALING: Funny you bring that up. I have seen healings performed by chinese reiki, by christian churches, by voodoo, by pagan and by wiccan “energy workers.”
I fully believe in energy/magic/power of prayer, and that energy is scientifically explainable, how it is we are capable of directing it is not apparent to anyone.
So far as the bible is concerned, I will say this: I believe there is truth in it.
I have no problem with Jesus.
However the book has been warped and re-written. It has been used as a tool of manipulation. You will never agree with me on this. and you will never believe that healings can be performed by anyone who believes in the energy… “god” whatever name you put to it. midichloreans? hah. but it has been done over and over again.
Pray with me: Jesus please save the world from your followers, please show them they are not masters of the earth but they are merely a part of it and they must respect their mother. Please stop the killing and war between religious factions and evil men. Please Jesus, show them how what they do kills others, and maybe show them how swearing a bit is nowhere near as offensive as trying to tell someone their destiny.
July 16th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
But if they found the ark you would have at least shred of proof. Something that you don’t have now.
But as we’ve found time and time again, you don’t need ANY evidence for anything you believe. Someone told you to believe something and you did…and never seemed to have used logic or reason to validate.
It’s funny to me. I have a Bible and have read it. Been to Church hundreds of times, took classes on religion, and was confirmed in the Episcopalian Church when I was a teenager. I was an Acolyte in my church most of my youth. What’s funny is that when I read the Bible I get something completely different out of it than you do. I use logic and reasoning to make the Bible work for me….and it does. Not unlike reading a Mother Goose type story and getting the moral out of it. I most certainly don’t believe that there was a lady living in a large shoe, but I used my brain and put the story together in actual real like possibilities.
I wonder if in the end God will judge me on taking the Bible’s message word for word, or UNDERSTANDING it’s message and what I personally think is the reason for it’s existence…and how to apply it to my everyday life. Will God look at people who take the Bible in an utter and complete literal sense and say, “Wow, you never opened your eyes and truly understood the true reason I gave you this book.”
-Fat
July 16th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Nomad,
Haha, did you seriously just whip out Pascal’s Wager? I’ll tell you one thing, IF you’re god exists, you just insulted him to no end. Basically you’re insinuating that if we believed just as a backup plan, that we’d be saved and your god wouldn’t know the difference in our lack of sincerity. The fact of the matter is that as has been noted numerous times here, the burden of proof lies firmly on your camp. Until such a time as ample evidence is provided to suggest otherwise, intelligent, rational, THINKING individuals have no recourse to take you seriously. That said, anecdotal evidence is in no way sufficient. If your god can “heal” blindness… why can’t he heal a double amputee?
Tell you what, why don’t we make a wager… you cut both your legs off and afterward pray that your god restores the original limbs from the stumps leftover. If he does i’ll believe in your god, if not… well *shrugs* guess you were wrong huh? What… you’re not willing to do that? Why not? Surely your god is cable of doing ANYTHING for a true believer right?
As for “monkeys turning into a man” here’s an approximation of what our species evolutionary course through history. Don’t worry, its in a video format to ease your understanding since you won’t take the time to read about it. BTW common ancestry does not mean we came from a monkey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcqA8wEljPM&feature=player_embedded
Finally allow me to educate you on the intrinsic value of words in our language… because there is none. No intrinsic value whatsoever. You see, words are neither good nor evil, they only posses the value upon which we attach them, as with everything in our lives. To suggest that my or anyone elses education was “immoral” for the simple use of a common “vulgarity” is absolutely inane.
July 16th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I’m not talking to Pastor Nomad any more. Digit, will you please tell him this for me?
If the Bible is true from front to back, I’ll eat my hat.
If God is real, good for him.
It effects me not at all. He can take me as I am or fuck right off. Any deity who demands blind faith with no solid proof in order to hang out with them after I die is a dick and I’m really not that interested in hanging out with them in the afterlife anyway.
If the Bible is not true Pastor Nomad is roaming the internet, spreading lies and creating strife for absolutely no reason. He’s also leading a congregation on. Probably taking money from them for “the church,” and possibly only doing good as a side effect of creating a community (even though the community would then be based on lies).
The Jesus I know about seemed like a pretty cool guy with some good ideas. Love your neighbor. That’s really cool. That’s all you need, according to John, Paul and George (Ringo too).
I have a feeling that if the Pastor approached life from a “do good and lead by example” standpoint instead of a “rub the absolutely contradictory word of your god in the face of the unbelievers and force them to be moral based on the standards of a book that is wildly outdated and repeatedly proven wrong,” he may have a much better success rate.
Jesus lead by example. Please tell the pastor that he is not.
Thanks for passing this on, Digit. That fool is so aggressively ignorant, I can hardly stand to think about the retarded things he’s said on here.
By the way… If mountains were just 25 feet tall in Noah’s day, and God told him to build an ark, God was a total asshole for not thinking that maybe a platform would do just as well.
I’m going to go watch Harry Potter tonight. I’ll bet the Pastor wouldn’t approve of that either, but he’s borderline retarded, so I don’t really care what he thinks.
July 16th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Lindsey…
There’s nothing wrong with giving yourself props, but around these parts, we tend to say “touting my radness.”
You are welcome to use any vernacular you wish, but please feel free to use our radness touting text as your own.
July 16th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Last post from me on this…..
Raffles…thanks for posting that movie. I didn’t even want to go there it pisses me off so much. Monkeys to man…..genetic similarity from APES to Man, monkeys to apes, man to monkeys….it’s been know by scientists for decades that none of this happened yet the Christians keep it alive in their necessary LACK of education to keep their cause.
So to end my post I’d like to say this…
The greatest minds of the earth all believe ONE THING.
That we DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWERS.
Get over it. The sooner you can stop pretending and say “I don’t know” the better off you will be.
I’ve NEVER met an atheist that will claim to know they are right. EVERY SINGLE ONE I have met has said to me…”I don’t know, I could be wrong…I’m going to live my life as I see is right.”
I wish I could say they same for Christians. Mostly what I see from Christians is FEAR and HATE, under the guise of serenity and love.
Makes me sick.
-Fat
July 16th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
I think I’m in love with lttlefinger…
July 16th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
I have sat back and watched this thread since its inception, and I think it’s time to share my thoughts in the matter.
Background: I went to Sunday school, until I was at the age when my parents allowed me to choose for myself if I wanted to continue. I chose not to; most of the kids from Sunday school were much worse sinners than me. I appreciated my parents allowing me the right to choose. Up until then I had an expensive item stolen from the church, and a girl fooled around with my boyfriend. The same girl many years later called me to ask my forgiveness; sure pal, whatever makes you feel better. I hate the part of religion that makes you feel like it’s okay to be morally wrong as long as you apologize for it 5 years later. I hate the belief that one person is any better than the next.
I believe in forgiveness, not because it was in the bible, but because life lessons taught me to be smarter. Just because someone is religious doesn’t mean they can be trusted.
Once I left the church, my real search for truth began. I consider myself a very spiritual person. I have led my life by way of morals for peace, love, unity, and respect (among others). I have many beliefs, yet a wise person knows they do not have all the answers (only a fool claims to know everything). This is only my two cents, you don’t have to believe it because I support your right to believe in whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t cause pain and suffering for others. I only want you to be happy.
I believe that I have a purpose in life, as do you, and my purpose is a part of this energy. Take a moment to see things from my perspective…
I believe Jesus was a man. He was a good man, whose words were used out of context in a book meant to control the masses.
I believe in a divine energy that encompasses all things. Energy takes on a form of life: movement (vibration), sound, light, heat etc. One form of energy can be changed into another.
I believe in an afterlife, although maybe not what you would expect. When my body lays to rest, my energy will live on in another form.
I believe that God is merely a way of us trying to put the entire universe into a easily explained box. Unfortunately it’s not that easy. As science brings us closer to the truth, this monotheistic ideal begins to fail.
I believe in the body’s ability to heal itself! The mind is an extremely powerful force of nature.
Take the word “GOD” and replace it with some form of “ME” and I believe you will see my point of view; it really is the secret to [my] happiness.
I AM love
I believe in ME
In OURSELVES we trust
Know YOURSELF and you will know peace.
etc.
There are many things wrong with religion, and the world, but I choose not to focus on the negative. I choose to focus on the positive, how I can help, how we can get along, love, which is all we really want anyway. I help others in any way I can, I let go of things I cannot change. Believing in Hell or the Devil only gives it more power because that is the energy you are releasing.
God is everything, and God is nothing. There is no one God, because the divine energy is alive in every one of us. We would never know happiness without sadness, there is purpose for it all. Even if the purpose of a pastor so set in his beliefs is merely for the rest of us to be thankful we have come so far. I am open to other ideas, but only if they make more sense.
PASTOR NOMAD:
I have seen monkey turned to man, by studying evolution. It make a lot of sense to me. I do not feel ashamed to have evolved from primates. To believe that an animal does not have the ability to reason, or to love, or has morals, doesn’t fare well with me. You are just as much an animal. I wanted to show you the respect of answering your questions to the best of my ability (as a college graduate, and a woman).
WHAT IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE?
I believe the bible exists. Saying it is true is like saying a made for TV movie is true. Sure the story may have happened somewhat like that, but it’s a Hollywood version, and the writers take certain liberties to tell the story the way they want it to go. I agree with Chaosfist that only the red letters have meaning, since they came from Jesus himself. Not the men who wrote the book years after his death. They were elaborating, and spinning an interesting story. For those who haven’t read the bible, it’s okay. I have never read Robinson Caruso, that doesn’t make me a bad person. You are forgiven.
WHAT IF GOD IS REAL?
She is real, in a sense. I don’t deny you believe she is real, although maybe not in the same form I believe. If enough people believe something, how can it be denied? Everything happens for a reason, whether or not we bring GOD into the picture. I ask you, what if Karma is real? The energy you put forth into this world is exactly what you will get back from it. Reap what you sow.
HOW DOES THAT EFFECT YOU?
It still doesn’t change how I act towards people. I have long learned the voices in my head telling me what is right and wrong are coming from my own brain, and that to be human is to be fallible. I might not be totally right, but at least I took the time to think about the decisions I make and how it affects others.
WHAT IF IT IS NOT?
You just called God IT. I would prefer if you speak about God to me to refer to her as ‘SHE’. If she were not real, then I think that you have a long way to go to catch up. It still doesn’t change how I treat people.
HOW DOES THAT EFFECT ME?
I think you mean Affect, which means to influence, not Effect, which is the result of something. I don’t know how this would effect you, I would hope you would/could accept it and allow us all to live in peace. I cannot predict the future, but I am secure in how I would react in certain situations. How would this affect me? I think it would just satisfy what I believed all along. There is no person controlling everything. WE all control the world in our own ways!
I hope that you listen to me and my friends with an open mind, and not from a defensive stance. It seems as if you have only been defending religion, when we should be breaking new ground on something we can all agree on.
WE ARE HUMAN AND WE LOVE LIFE!
CHANGE HAPPENS! GET OVER IT!
July 16th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
SparkleFinger calls the Affect/Effect rule into play.
40,000 point bonus.
Grammar Awareness Achievement Unlocked.
July 16th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
5 to stamina
July 17th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Digit says:
July 1st, 2009 at 12:58 pm
When someone can explain, without referencing the Bible, why they are right about god and Jesus, then maybe I’ll consider it.
It is funny how you all want christians to prove their point and then take away there evidence.
Why not prove your theories without any of the documented proof and research.
Fact is if we take away the Bible and also all of your “documented theories” we are left still with a feeling of wonder that something or someone did all of this.
God installed that sense of wonder in us. He is a God of relationship and that is how we are all wired.
I thank you all for the conversation. I thank you for the criticism because it is for the name of My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. My doctrine the Bible says the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ our Lord. Those who reject Him will have no share in heaven. If nothing else I have shown love and i am honored to have been apart of this thread because even if you believe in God or not it has cause everyone of us to ponder where we are at spiritually.
I am firm in my faith!
Respectfully yours,
Pastor Nomad
July 17th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Sorry, their not there!
July 17th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
don’t worry, karma will follow you wherever you go. Just remember we are all part of something bigger than ourselves, so don’t be selfish. We talk about taking away one book (of ‘evidence’) and you speak of taking away volumes, written from all aspects and angles and points of views. I never lived in Jesus’ time so I guess I will never really know what it was like. But I know how people treat each other now, and it ain’t much better.
PAY IT FORWARD!
July 17th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
their = belongs to them
they’re = they are
July 17th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Digit: odd you say that, I was observing her as
“digit’s type, brains that won’t quit from her neck to the floor.”
lttle: you ought to come to a party that some of the FOBer’s attend sometime, we are 10X as fun as we seem on paper.
Sparkle finger Scores quadruple grammar mastery, and rolls 13XD 9 English Mage(Maj.) for a destruction ratio of deathX3.42633333333 to the 3rd power.
Savepoint appears.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Try this… take “GOD” out of the equation and see my point of view.
Human nature has [instilled] that sense of wonder in us. I am a person of relationships, and that is how we are all wired.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and views, I will compare them with all the rest of mankind.
I hope someday you will realize that heaven is on Earth. Try to adopt a more global view of togetherness. Then you will see that we humans are much more in common than we are different!
July 17th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
It makes me sad you would reject me from heaven.
Have I really done anything wrong here?
July 17th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Hey thanks Chaos! I live in Orange County CA but my folks live in lovely old Lynden WA, maybe it would work out sometime…
And now with that insight… i.e. my folks live in Lynden… You can better understand my resistance against having a religious argument… I have long since learned to keep it to myself amongst “that” type.
I must say this has been a wonderful experience. I have not put so much thought into my own beliefs in eons. This idea really had my mind working. In all honesty I was borderline obsess for a bit. People never cease to amaze me. In this process I have learned that I have a cousin who believes the whole dinosaur theory and my best friend says she can’t decide whether or not people and dinosaurs co-existed. I am trying my best to forget I ever brought it up to her. HA HA
My noodles have been working on overload, it feels great and for that I thank you.
July 18th, 2009 at 12:15 am
you’ll have to excuse me if im a bit terse and brief in this response, im rather tired.
nomad,
the reason the bible is not sufficient proof of anything is that it lacks any corroborating evidence… no other book or history accounts for the fables found in those particular pages. by your very logic, Grims fairy tales hold as much weight as your bible does. one book is not enough evidence… just as one witness wouldn’t be enough to convict an alleged criminal, thus your burden of proof remains.
sparkle,
don’t worry about heaven, all the interesting people are in hell heh.
littlefinger,
the only person to thank is yourself, you’re the one that decided to engage your brain and look at things critically. dont be afraid to give yourself some credit
August 2nd, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Hey, Guys… just checking on you… I have been really busy lately but sorta missed talking with you all…
I have been doing some investigating and you might want to look the following over.
see ya..
To get a copy of
Y-Origins Magazine
visit http://www.Y-zine.com
Leading scientists like Einstein admit to a “superintelligence.”
DNA causes leading atheist to renounce 50 years of unbelief
DNA stuns evolutionists by tracing all humans to a single parent
New theories predict other dimensions that make “miracles” possible
The Creator has left clues in the cosmos that tell us what He is like.
This colorful, easy-to-read magazine provides startling insights about our origins from such leading scientists as Stephen Hawking, Stephen Jay Gould, Roger Penrose, and Paul Davies. In his review of Y-Origins Jon Greene writes,
“Y-Origins is a wonderful work on intelligent design, designed to appeal to the Y-generation. For readers who have never been exposed to the evidence for intelligent design, Y-Origins is a great introduction
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:48 am
Interesting Stuff John, I wish I didn’t have to pay for it to read a copy.
I don’t completely doubt the possibility of intelligent design, I just doubt the translated bible, and it’s original authors. The talk of other dimensions is right up my alley, but I believe that if anything science may prove there is some truth to a lot of religions, however it will likely disprove most of it.
All of the things people keep making up in an attempt to use the bible to explain science… they really hurt the chance for Christianity to ever exist with science, ideas like dinosaurs and man co-existing that are not mentioned in the bible at all. Scientifically we know that’s not true, but the museum of creation teaches kids these falsities and is really hurting their own religion with blatant lies.
August 3rd, 2009 at 3:13 pm
First of all John, I would like to applaud you for doing some investigating. That said, you’ve still got a long ways to go. Have you taken the time to examine the critiques of your beliefs? I’m talking seriously sat down and looked at them from a neutral perspective, then compared them to what you hold to be true? Until you’ve done that, your investigating amounts to nothing more than self confirmation and reinforcement. I challenge you to be truly critical of your beliefs and find out what is true. If your beliefs are good and solid then they will withstand criticism, if not then you should adapt your beliefs to conform to what is true not what is comfortable.
Regarding Y-Origins, anyone can write a magazine and publish it, all it takes is some money. Y-Origins is in no way credible, least of all scientific in any sense. Once intelligent design arguments have passed the rigor of a genuine peer reviewed scientific journal than we can talk about considering their remonstrations, but not before.
Additionally, here are a few things regarding the scientists mentioned in your post.
Stephen Hawking – an interview wherein, Dr. Hawking clearly states there is no evidence for intelligent design
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/04/talkasia.hawking.script/index.html
Albert Einstein – a recently found letter written by Dr. Einstein speaks of the childish superstition that is religion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion
Stephen Jay Gould – wikipedia entry for him. i should note that though a brilliant scientist and not explicitly religious, i do disagree with his idea of NOMA (described in the entry) as many in the scientific and rational thinking communities do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould#Non-overlapping_magisteria
Roger Penrose – though not directly dealing with Dr. Penrose, a passage within this deals with refuting “intelligent design” and in part addresses Dr. Penrose. also note that Penrose was viewed as insufficiently anti-naturalistic by the particular supporter of “id” taken to task in this brief article.
http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-03/intelligent-design.html
Paul Davies – didnt find much on him in a quick google search but here’s a bit from Britannica about him as well as some commentary regarding an article he wrote for the NYT and the missteps he took in it.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/152706/Paul-Davies
http://www.prometheus6.org/node/18781
additional link i didnt read entirely but also critiques Paul Davies. the website itself acts as a place to critique creationist arguments in general so i might recommend you look over some of whats there John
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Davies1.cfm
all this came up in a quick google search… im sure if i took a bit of serious time i could easily find much more support if i wished to. making unsupported claims (show the proof that DNA traces our ancestry to one set of parents) in a magazine with no credibility does little to support your argument.
one more thing, what do you make of this article? would you have done the same thing had she been your child?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32252045/
August 3rd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
where’d my comment go? :-s that took quite a bit of work too bah
August 3rd, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Got spammed…I unspammed it. -Fat
August 3rd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
ahhh thanks dude… heh there are quite a few links arent there? thought my connection constantly dropping had killed it
August 4th, 2009 at 12:30 am
Yeah, John, cool that you found something. But not cool that we have to shell out cash to support something that, in all likelihood, is spreading disinformation and superstition. I’d rather not use my dollars to further that cause.
That being said, it’s easy to make a point in a vacuum. Given no other sources, it’s rather easy to convince someone of a particular idea. This magazine’s publisher probably takes great pains to present only information that supports their claims by picking and choosing the subject matter and information they use. Not to mention a liberal dose of trickery and fakery. Maybe not… but probably yes.
Now, I know what you’re thinking; everything Digit just said can be applied to his points too. You’re right! But there are some key differences. Science doesn’t happen in a vacuum. The scientific community is vast and varied. Their goals are just as disparate. I can guarantee you, however, that their goals do not include dismantling religion. As a general rule, religion and faith hold as much interest to the average scientist as Michael Jackson does to you and me. It’s something we may think about, and even have an opinion on, but he doesn’t affect how we conduct our lives. That’s the difference between Y-Origins and all other science. Y-Origins is committed to discrediting the scientific community in favor of faith based pseudo-science, while all the rest of the science world is just out to discover truth. Now with such a focused and confrontational goal, isn’t it probable that Y-Origins is a bit biased? Not to mention the fact that the bible is in no way shape or form a reliable text for scientific study. When I was in college, I had to buy a new science book because the old one I had was out of date… and it was 3 years old. The bible is 2000 years old… Come on.
So, until you can come up with something iron clad, or at least substantial, one magazine designed to give succor to the willfully ignorant isn’t going to cut it.
August 4th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Ah, could it be that this thread is being resurrected? I proclaim this to be the Lazarus of FOB threads…it seems as though it will never die, perhaps even have everlasting life.
Perhaps Lazarus was not appropriate for comparison…maybe “Zombie Thread” suits it better.
August 6th, 2009 at 4:09 am
The investigating I did was not to try in some way to get enough information to help me decide one way or the other concerning my belief in God or His son Jesus Christ or the Bible. Of all the questions I have concerning this life and the hereafter these are in no way debatable as far as my beliefs.
I know without a doubt there is a God. I know within my heart this to be so. I am starting to think you just cannot understand this. You seem to have the attitude that unless you can scientifically prove something it just cannot be a valid statement. If you tell me you like potatoes but you don’t like corn at all, I guess I could just say I don’t believe you because I have know way of knowing for sure if you really do or don’t. I have to take your word for it. The truth is we do this every day.
The investigating I did was to try in some way to figure out where you all are coming from. In some way this is all helping me in my faith. The worry I have is that you all will wait too long. You do not have to know everything there is to know about Jesus Christ to make a decision to accept his plan of salvation. You do not have to know everything about the Bible or the creation of the world. That is why the Bible says whosoever will believe in Him. It doesn’t say whosoever has the ability to prove that Jesus Christ is really who he says he is. Some things you have to accept by faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
God is not mad at you all, not at all. (Psalms 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.)
The apostle Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, was like you all in many ways but he took it to a much higher level. He had many believers put into prison or put to death. He met God one day while walking down the road. His life was completely changed and he lived the rest of his life serving God.
gotta go to work… later
August 6th, 2009 at 9:01 am
This probably doesnt apply to you john, but here it is anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&feature=related
Additionally, equating something someone “likes” to a personal world belief/outlook that lacks much proof (and that significantly effects actions some of which lead to conflict and discord with others) isnt exactly the same thing. If you can’t see the disparity there.. well… i guess i could tell you to work on it but i doubt you will. Its funny how people of your ilk have the nerve to say atheists aren’t open minded and yet here you are demonstrating the dictionary definition of being close minded. You can never understand where I or any other atheist is coming from unless you first critically examine your beliefs from a neutral perspective. Absolute certainty is a sham. I’ll not live my life chasing what in all probability is a lie.
Just to clarify, the gospels and books you see in the current version of the bible were agreed upon by the council of nicea sometime in the 4th century C.E. When the books of the bible were put together they left out quite a few others… ever wonder why?
August 6th, 2009 at 11:11 am
I like the word cockamame… seems fitting.
Oh, and why do I no longer have a gravatar?
August 6th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
LITTLEFINGER… Your gravatar looks like it’s working to me. Maybe the service was down for a bit? It’s tied to your email address, so if you typo that, you’ll have to beg me (my username at this domain name) and have me fix it for you.
JOHN: Let it die. You’ve already shown us what a sucker you are. We’d be happy to leave it at that.
October 11th, 2009 at 3:55 am
Keeping an open mind and rebellion are closely related just ask Adam and Eve. You didn’t change your mind friend you simply gave into your inquisitive human sinful nature. Whether this country was established on Biblical values is irrelevant at this time. What is more relevant now is we BETTER establish Biblical values now before our founded freedom buries us in sinful rebellion.
October 11th, 2009 at 4:22 am
Fake indicated, but url left intact since it’s relevant.
October 11th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
seriously… *sigh* so this fake stinkfinger is bringing it up again.
well, which set of biblical values should our nation adhere to exactly? perhaps old testament values where slavery is allowable? perhaps that bit where you stone misbehaving children? if you want to outlaw curiosity, you can go ahead and throw away every last bit of technology you have including your computer since that came about due to the active and curious individuals. you can also not make use of the hospitals or take any medications as well as those too are the result of inquisitive “sinful” human nature.
since i fully expect you to get rid of your computer since you probably dont want to be associated with “sin” im not expecting a response… i suppose thats that then yeah? have a pleasant day
October 12th, 2009 at 2:18 am
I’d be interested to see if this post adds anything to the debate:
http://www.fistofblog.com/2009/10/12/maybe-god-didnt-create-per-se/
I mean, it’s not as if anyone taking the retarded side of this argument will ever give any credence to a more accurately-translated bible, but what if they did?
October 12th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Still, this country was founded by Puritans who had the idea of America being a New Israel. One of the reasons we went to war with England was because of all the support of these Puritans and their opinions against the Church of England. Although our Founding Fathers were not religious, that does not mean that the people weren’t religious as well. In fact, Benjamin Franklin was quite sure of himself being Deist but would never state such a thing to the public because he would immediately lose support from the people. (I’m Agnostic myself, I’m just stating that America being founded on Biblical principles is definitely a possibility.)
October 13th, 2009 at 12:09 am
Fart
October 13th, 2009 at 12:10 am
*sigh*
October 13th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
you have to provide the proof to backup your claims Camille and that’s not something the opposing side has done. Our country was founded by a diverse group of individuals, some deists, some christians and perhaps even a few agnostics/atheists. however, as one can see in the treaty of tripoli our diplomats stated that the United States was not founded as a Christian nation. Here’s a link to an over view of the treaty:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
here’s a little more on some of the founders:
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
I’ll admit that some of the ideas infused into the constitution COULD have been born out of a reading of the bible but that’s merely one possibility among many that may have influenced the framers. To suggest that since the bible may have been of some influence that our nation is therefore one founded upon christian principles is a ludicrous butchering of the facts.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
-raffles
Ahah, I figured you’d say something like that. I’m actually doing a paper on this topic and when I was googling around looking for resources I came across this and decided to give my two cents (since no ones else seemed to mention this point of view but I’ll do with what I can from my research so far) In all honesty though, my claim mainly focuses on that the Revolutionary War had much to do with the Puritans which then led to the idea of “America”.
So I’m not sure if I can find percentages of how many Colonials were religious but I feel quite positive in saying that the majority of them are, being Christians/Puritans. For example with the whole obsession of converting the Native Americans to Christianity and how many of the sermons/speeches/ even documents would mention God. (Like the Declaration of Independence. I feel bad that I can’t remember where I read this but basically the entire first paragraph of it was for/to satisfy Colonials and practically painful for Thomas Jefferson to write. The rest is where he actually gets into it… with his plagiarizing of Enlightenment thinkers… but anyways…
Still not quite sure what you’d like me to back up but I’ll try.
Corruption of Church of England? Just look at Henry VIII and his six wives. The Puritans, after this, hoped to escape England (who they now believed did not have the grace of God) and settled in America. Even in the Mayflower Compact there were many religious themes. I believe this was 1620. In 1630, John Winthrop arrived, leading the Massachusetts Bay Colony and many Puritans, he made a famous speech in which he declared New Britain would be “a city upon a hill” and that alone says much. For America being a New Israel, if you take a look at the summary of the Book of Joshua, there were many similarities between the two. There were also two famous sermons, pumping up the Colonials to rebel against Britain for religious reasons. Check:
1.God Arising And Pleading His People’s Cause
2.Discourse Concerning Unlimited Submission and Non-Resistance to the Higher Powers
Also, many of those that served in the war/egged it on were Puritans.
Sorry for the ramble/disorganization but I’m just a high school student with a five page paper due on Friday in which I only have a paragraph done and I have now somehow lost it because my laptop battery sucks. Still beats me why I came back to check this. Hopefully we’ll have a nice debate once I’m not so stressed and when my mind’s a bit more cleared up. (:
October 13th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
^Forgot to put the name.
So um, I have yet to check out the links and I’m very sorry about that. I still believe that America has much more to do with the actual people than the founders however.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
-just another additional thought (I really need to stop coming back to this and start focusing on my paper but..)
All our presidents, except John F. Kennedy, have been Christian so far. (or at least that’s what’s announced to the public) Kinda goes to show what type of people we have voting in the US.
October 13th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Camille,
First of all, i would like to applaud you for putting the leg work in to actually do a bit of research on this subject. Its difficult for even some Ph.d graduates to put in the effort to backup their arguments in these areas and to see a high school student doing it is refreshing to say the least.
That said, while i agree that there were a significant number of christians in the United States at its founding, that does not constitute the United States being founded as a “christian nation”. To be founded as a christian nation implies that our laws and government adhere to the tenants of christianity. That of course is not the case and as much is said in those links i provided.
At this moment, I believe you are confusing the personal beliefs of a small collection of individuals who assisted in the opportunity for our nation to be founded with the actual founding of our country. Its all well and good that puritans assisted in the war effort during the revolution, as did deists, non believers, slaves and Native Americans among many others. Puritans however did not write the constitution and in fact played little part in it.
One thing a history professor once mentioned during a lecture was that virtually nothing in history is mono-causal. That is to say that when you trace an event back to its cause you’ll find that there were in fact a number of elements which contributed to the events occurrence, some being more influential than others. Try to keep that in mind while you think critically about what you’re writing and the sources you use.
Now then, get back to your homework eh?
Oh and don’t take any of this personally, this is just a friendly discussion.
October 13th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
-raffles
Mann, haha, I had this feeling that I would be off-topic. Ah well, it was still a nice way to somewhat organize myself and prepare me for my paper. (My paper is how religion was the main cause of the American Revolution. Combine what the Puritans learned from the Book of Joshua, Exodus, and Book of Revelation and you end up with God = on their side and Britain = the devil. Intense intense research and quoting still needed for this however but interesting in my opinion none the less..) So uhh, yeah. Basically anything after the the American Revolution I have little knowledge of, aha.
And second to last part I couldn’t agree with more! Except if I worked in such a manner my paper would be 30 pages and uhh, that doesn’t seem appealing at the moment. But really, there’s so many things to work with for the Revolutionary War with codfish, Massachusetts always burning, Salem Witch trials, Rights of Englishmen, parallels to Rome, and so many other things that it makes my head spin just thinking about it and I feel like I’m not doing the topic justice and just aw man. Aha, I have a feeling I’ll be doing more research during free time. I’ll come along again if I find something to back up my claims.
It was nice speaking(well you know what I mean) to you though and there’s absolutely no offense taken. I’ve been in some pretty nasty discussions before and you most definitely rank as one of the nicest/most constructive people I’ve spoken to. Well, back to homework! (:
October 13th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Camille, I think you’re getting things a little scrunched up. The Puritan pilgrims settled in Plymouth in 1620. The American Revolution started in 1775, a full 155 years later. Sure, the Puritans were among the first settlers of the New World, but they were not the only ones, nor were they even in the majority by the time the American Revolution started. The reasons for the revolution was almost purely political, having to do with taxation, land ownership, military occupation, commerce and personal freedoms. Religious reasons were nearly negligible as the British Crown didn’t care what religion the colonists practiced. They just wanted the money and resources. Any religious motivation for the American Revolution was purely used as a prod, an incentive to fight. But that’s been historically the case for just about all wars fought by almost all armies throughout history. One of the best ways to goad a people to fight is to tell them that god is on their side, so invoking the name of god in the lead up and the execution of war was merely a propaganda tool to get the colonials to fight.
Also, I’m not sure why you would say JFK wasn’t a christian. He was a Catholic, which, when I was one of them, means he worshiped Jesus Christ… Ergo, Christian.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:11 am
JFK wasn’t a Christian! He worshiped them Cath-o-lick Jeebus. Gardamn heathun.
(Knuckle is Catholic)
October 14th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
-Digit
With the whole JFK ordeal that’s what I’m saying: that he’s Catholic. He’s the only one left out because he recognizes himself as a Catholic.
And honestly, the whole taxation deal is false. Since America was one of Britain’s prized possessions, they actually did all they could to make them happy. Even the ‘taxes’ weren’t all that bad. In fact many of the products became cheaper.(Some of these taxes were actually quite brilliant such as the Stamp Act. Knowing that only the rich would ever need to use paper, this allowed them to receive money from those who could afford to help pay off debts.) And things such as the Boston Tea Party was completely pointless. After all the tea on that ship was incredibly cheap and affordable. The Tea Act made tea cheaper so they could compete against the prices of the Colonial smugglers. (For our paper in History class the teacher strongly emphasized that taxes was not the cause of the American Revolution and we could focus on anything other than that as the cause.)
Britain has always tried to stay on good terms with America. Cause no matter how you look at it, once Britain lost control of the US, America’s economy did terrible while Britain was doing just fine.
And we’re actually agreeing about the religion part. Except ever since the beginning, there was always that idea of the Church of England being corrupt. From all the Biblical text these religious fanatics surrounded themselves by, it was easy for them to connect the similarities between the Book of Joshua/Exodus/Book of Revelations and their personal lives. And also my sources said differently in which the Puritans actually had quite a big role in the Revolutionary War, especially the ministers.
I still believe one of the main causes of the Revolutionary War was the parallels seen between the Roman empire and the British empire. Since a lot of the American’s literature was Roman (I mean just look at the influences of Roman architecture/government), they realized the possibility in the collapse of the British Empire. Mixed with how whenever another country gets mad at the British, Massachusetts ALWAYS seems to somehow end up burning down,
-war of spanish succession
-war of austrian succession
-louisburg
they noticed the connection and decided to separate themselves from Britain. The whole ‘taxes’, tyranny, oppression deal was just a way to convince the commoners. Cause I mean hey, that type of stuff sounds good. Just like the whole fighting a war because God wants us to.
To sum things up, I think different people had different reasons in wanting to separate from Britain. The commoners had, to put it bluntly, crap lives and would love to just play the blame game (I believe they were easily influenced). The religious would do it for God and for their safety from the ‘devil’ (being Britain). The intellectuals looked at politics and literature for guidance. Farmers did it for more land (that whole Proclamation of 1763) Those that were big on Magna Carta and self representation had the whole political/rights of Englishmen thing going for them. I’m sure there’s others too.
So yeah, just my thoughts. (:
October 14th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Man, that was quite the wall of text. Uhh, if you have anything major major to say please do it after Friday please please please? I’m already terrible at time management/concentration (our school actually just did surveys on these for the students and I received 45/100 on those… the whole idea of being at a boarding school doesn’t help matters too much either) so I would absolutely adore you if you didn’t comment back until after Friday. Absolutely adore. (and if I could, that would be in italics, bold, and underline.
DDD<3 )
October 14th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
I’m commenting anyway if only just to say your teacher and your perception of the American Revolution is severely warped.
Also, Catholics are Christians just as Baptists, Calvinists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Anglicans and Methodists are.
Camille, you truly need to strike out on your own. Someone has a hold on your brain and it’s doing you no favors.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
-Digit
At the last part: I completely agree and I recognize it’s most definitely taking its toll ever since I’ve come to this school but I’m working to get rid of it bit by bit. I’ve recently been on facebook much much less and I find that as a huge achievement. (Thank you very much for the short response. I can kind of figure that it could have been much much longer.) And hey, at least this is actually educational.
And severely warped? How so? I find him to be a fantastic teacher that teaches us more more than just the mainstream way things are presented. Maybe try looking up some of the things I’ve mentioned? They’re not made up after all and I fail to see how it doesn’t contribute to the fact that those topics most definitely affected how the Revolutionary War came to be.
Well, I suppose you could say those are all religions and broaden things even further. I’m just saying that’s what he recognizes himself as so that’s the way I recognize it as. But hey, if you want to say he’s Christian than that only proves the point that I was making earlier ever more.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
^ Wipe out the extra “more” in the second paragraph and we’re good. (:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Just wanted to say Hello and let you all know I’m still around. Hope everyone is doing OK. Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving.. See you later, John
November 27th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Yo John!.. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving! -Fat
November 28th, 2009 at 1:42 am
I can say with confidence that I am ambivalent about the status of John’s Thanksgiving. I care exactly as much about it as I care about Thanksgiving at any stranger’s house.
Luckily God gave us permission to eat those birds. And really, to do whatever we want with them. Thanks God. You’re the greatest. No matter WHAT 4 million turkeys a year might say about you, you’re a pretty good guy.
December 2nd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Thumb, I didn’t have turkey but I must say you really have a way with words… I realize we don’t really know each other but you seem a little cold… Rodney King comes to mind…
December 2nd, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Ok John,
Now you are just fishing. And in my opinion foundering…
December 2nd, 2009 at 4:00 pm
That’s okay John. I’ll cop to cold if you’ll cop to gullible bordering on retarded.
My turkey stats were off, by the way. I should have said 70 million turkeys a year.
December 2nd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Seriously, this discussion is still going?
Sooo off topic, soooo out of the correct CENTURY.
The push to convert the natives to christ? Oh come the fuck on…
Psychologically the majority always tries to convert the minority, or kill them off. This is what is called discrimination and prejudice.
We can all pretend they were well meaning nice folks trying to save some souls, but really? The majority was a bunch of fuck ups like the rest of us.. making some pathetic attempt at “normalcy” and giving themselves some sort of cause they could brag about to the other “normal” people.
Seriously, this whole topic and debate has gotten way off track, and I think its silly.
All U.S. presidents were christians? What about the first few who were free masons? Not christian at all.
How about their actions? how christian are they? not a damn one acted anything like a christian if you ask me, including the bushes. And Obama is not a christian, he is the first president to be smart enough to shut his fucking trap about religion.
God bless those of you who count, and fuck the rest.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Thumb, I am probably closer to retarded… Some things I’m not real sure about… but, I have been around a little and I know one thing for sure if I am retarded … I’m not alone… some of you guys are not far behind me… gullible? We all fall into that trap from time to time but just because you disagree with me doesn’t mean I’m gullible… I guess I could say the same thing about you…
Littlefinger, I’m not the only one fishing…You guys are a little closed minded at times… I guess I’m just trying to get in the back door… You all keep your front door over-protected most of the time…
ChaoFist, This discussion will end one of these days but for now I am afraid it will get worse before it gets better… This topic in this century is pretty much the same as it was 2000 years ago…
President Bush, in my opinion was a very good president, not perfect but I think he did a great job…
I must say I would vote for Condalisa Rice for president in a heart beat… President Obama can’t get this country back on track by himself. All of us as well as the President needs help that only God can provide… ChaoFist, I hate to be blunt but you missed it… Your not by yourself so don’t be hard on yourself… It is just beyond my comprehension how anyone could think mankind will ever get out of the mess the world is in without Gods help… If you don’t believe in God you better be believe in something… Mankind sure isn’t going to do it…
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:29 pm
and you’re not going to get anywhere in life by sitting on your haunches praying all the time waiting for your god to do everything for you. you’re using god as a cop-out, a crutch, to relieve yourself of difficult responsibilities nothing more. sure our country and indeed our world are in a tough position but the only way we ever got out of such situations was by doing something ourselves.
moving on to your close-minded remark, first of all, here’s a definition to work from.
Close-minded -
Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/close-minded
now look, if you want to believe in your god and all the trappings therein, that’s your prerogative. but for us, we’ve looked at those ideas critically and find they hold no water and thus no sway over us. there are no new ideas there to discuss and indeed the old ones aren’t worth the time as they’ve been debunked time and again. if anyone here is intolerant/unreceptive of new ideas it’d most certainly be you john of the blind faith will save the day crowd.
what gets me is how your ilk keep coming back with the same tired arguments pounding away at them over and over as though repetition will actually accomplish your goals.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Troll.
December 4th, 2009 at 12:15 am
I’d say I’m not closed minded at ALL!
I’m generally unreceptive to unprovable and insubstantial claims, but that’s not closed minded, that’s just good sense! If someone came up to you and told you he knew a guy named Jeff who could make your life a paradise, all you have to do is give your devotion, money and thoughts to him, you’d have the good sense to tell him to back up and stop telling lies to people. To us, the promises of god are no more substantial than the promises of Jeff. The word of the Bible is no more authoritative than an issue of Highlights in a dentist’s office. The authority of the Bible is entirely self-contained; why should I believe a book because the book and it’s readers say I should? Why should I care what Jeff says? The answer to both questions is, I shouldn’t!
Let me paint another picture for you.
Let’s say you heard about the greatest amusement park in the world, Funcoland! No one who has been there has ever come back to tell about it because it’s that good. No one knows quite where it is, but if you take Highway 777, you’ll get there. So we all start driving. Then one day, I decide to get off Highway 777.
“What’s your problem?” you yell, “Don’t you want to Funcoland?!”
“Not really,” I reply.
“How could you NOT want to go to the greatest amusement park in the world?” you beg.
“Well, because I’ve been driving for years, and I have no reason to believe it even exists at all. So you keep driving, have fun. Meanwhile, I’m going to Machu Picchu and Rome and Tongo and Sydney and Kilamanjaro and St. Petersberg and Oslo and Yellowstone and Tokyo and Antarctica and Johannesburg.”
Now, who’s more closed minded, the person who stays on that highway on some vague promise of a great time? Or is it the person who chooses to embrace all the wonders of what’s right there in front of them?
December 4th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Digit~
I love the amusement Metaphor. It’s brilliant.
Over the Thanksgiving Holiday I attended my nieces Baptism as I am her Godmother. I have to tell you it was SO witchy poo. I have not been to a church in years and I was truly surprised at how bizarre it all seemed. They were making that poor child miserable holding her horizontal while she flailed and fought it, pouring cold water on her head. She started to cry as anyone would with people all hovering around her forcing her into discomfort no matter how she fought and all in the name of God. The Pastor said “if you can get her to stop crying I would like to pray”. She is a baby, crying is what they do, you weirdo. Give me that baby, I thought.
After the ceremony the Pastor avoided me like the plague. The look on his face reminded me of my teenager when he knows I know he is full of shit. I was doing nothing differently than the crowd and yet he shook everyone’s hand but mine and my man’s as he left. The whole time I was wondering if he thought I was there to test his faith. I wondered about the internal battle he was having in his head about demons and angels and heaven and hell fire. What an interesting way to spend your time and energy.
So so very strange these grown men and women who still have imaginary friends.
I am thankful that I have an understanding family. They all know me well and they love me wholeheartedly. I know my attendance was important to them and I do think they saw how complacent I was behaving and how it was all for them. I appreciated the event in terms of stopping and taking a moment to all focus on the importance of raising this precious child to be a loving and compassionate person. Making a promise as a family to nurture that tiny little person is special. Why some imaginary man in the sky has to be a part of it is beyond me.
December 4th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
God doesn’t do everything for me or anyone else…but we all need His help. He expects us all to be responsible individuals. I am all for new ideas… I never said I wasn’t…One can be receptive to new ideas without compromising the basic fundamentals of what one believes… Sometimes, I suppose, you do have to come across as intolerant or even stubborn… Some things are not all that significant but when your talking about belief in God, that’s a different situation…If you were standing beside an interstate highway and knew there was a big pile up around the bend and you saw someone flying down the road at a high rate of speed, I know you would flag them down and let them know about it…If they said “Man I just watched the 5 o’clock news and they didn’t say anything about it so just get out of my way”… I bet you would try to convince them they had better listen to you or they will have to suffer the consequences… Gods’ word is not just an old idea… Gods’ word is fact…It may sound like a repetitious argument to you but that is because Gods’ word never changes. It is the same today as it was from the beginning of time…Fact…
Fortunately, God doesn’t give up on us easily… You’re much closer to Him than you think…To me life without Him makes absolutely no sense at all…We are only here for just a little while…If you really believe this is all there is for mankind then we are really a miserable bunch… There is a God and he sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the world… You may not know Him now but standing somewhere in the shadows you will find Him and you’ll know Him by the nail prints in His hands…
December 4th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
John I think you are a diluted idiot! I’m sorry I can not take it any more. Why you think this is a good place to beat your bible is beyond me. I wish you’d go believe in fairy tails someplace else.
Your metaphor does not work because there is no evidence that life without God means discomfort/hell (a pile up, whatever). Many many people have lived full and happy lives without God. What happens after death is unbeknownst to us.
But hey whatever makes you feel better. The only difference here between you and me is that I do not push my opinion on others. You on the other hand do. All I know is that I don’t know which makes me far more intellegent. And my comfort with letting people be, makes me less obnoxious and far more considerate.
December 4th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Littlefinger, You said being in church made you feel so witchy poo…and that it seemed bizarre… You thought to yourself the pastor was a weirdo… You say you think I’m a diluted idiot and then you say you appreciated taking a moment to focus on the importance of raising this precious child to be a loving and compassionate person…Makes a lot of sense…I see your point… Your right… I will let you be…
December 5th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
John, you are very, very, VERY confused about the definition of the word “fact”.
December 5th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Here’s a little something to keep the discussion going…
December 5th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Digit, All through history people have drawn opposing opinions from the same facts. Other words ones opinion of a factual statement may be the result of ones interpretation of the considered fact. I know it’s a fact that I have a computer hooked up to the internet…You can’t see it but you know I do…I really don’t want to limit myself to claiming a belief as fact only when I can convince others or produce something for them to see and touch especially when they have already made their mind up to disbelieve what I consider to be fact… I didn’t make that statement because I thought you would agree with me that it was fact but rather to let you know I do believe it to be a fact…
December 5th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
What you are saying is that people make differing conclusions based on the same fact.
What I’m saying is I came to a different conclusion because what you consider to be a fact, isn’t.
A fact is something that is provable and testable. Your internet connection, if I were so inclined, is something I could test for myself.
God’s existence is not provable, nor testable. And before you tell me about your personal story and knowing for sure because of it, keep in mind, if there is any, ANY other possibility that could explain your personal experience, then god’s existence as an explanation is not a fact, but a possibility (and a narrow one at that).
Knowing in your heart is not proof. I knew in my heart that my girlfriend loved me, but I was wrong.
December 6th, 2009 at 3:38 am
Digit, your right, I cannot prove to you the existence of God but the belief in God makes a whole lot more sense to me than anything else I have come across in this world. There are a lot of things you know to be fact but you can’t prove it. When I say something about God I am not thinking that I am going to in someway say the right thing to convert you… I know that’s not going to happen… I’m not a preacher but I do have the right to voice my opinion.
The Bible teaches that “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and everything else” and the evolutionists teach that “in the beginning nothing became something and exploded.”
According to the big bang theory our earth suddenly popped into existence and rapidly expanded and gave rise to billions of galaxies with their billions of stars.
All logic predicts that if you have nothing, nothing will happen. It is against logic and science to believe the universe is the product of nothing. An empty bank account will not suddenly give rise to billions of dollars all on its own; someone has to put the money in there.
If we accept that the universe and everything in it came from nothing then the universe and everything else is the product of nothing. That would be saying that nothing created reason and logic and everything else.
December 6th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
First off, evolutionists (as if that’s some kins of religion) say absolutely nothing about the Big Bang. Evolution is the study of the rise and changes within living organisms. Cosmology may have something to say about the Big Bang. Evolution does not.
Second, the quick, dirty and simple answer to where the universe came from before the Big Bang is, it always was there. It’s the same answer you would give if I asked where god came from. The big difference is, there is no divinity, motivation, consciousness or purpose required for the universe to exist.
The more accurate answer, however, is that we don’t know. Now, while that may seem like a victory to you, it’s not the full picture. We don’t know, and we’re entirely comfortable with that, because science allows for that. What it doesn’t allow, however, is accepting that. When there’s a gap in scientific knowledge, someone is working to fill it. When there is a gap in your knowledge, you say, “God did it,” regardless of the accuracy or validity of that statement. Further, when science does answer a question, it needs to be put to public scrutiny. Nothing is accepted at first blush, it must be recreated, tested and hold up with what is known. And even if it does pass these tests, if something better comes along, the old information is discarded or reworked. Science is a constantly evolving endeavor, which is why it’s so adaptive and robust. Religion is staid and stagnant. What applied to bronze age farmers applies to you, and frankly, that doesn’t work for the modern world. You may take solace in the unchanging nature of god, but that’s all the positive its going to offer you. Solace.
Now, as you respond to this with further attacks on science and knowledge, I’d like you to keep in mind two things. First, before you doubt science, I refer you back to the computer and internet connection you implied I cannot prove exists. You need look no farther than the marvel of science and knowledge that allows us to communicate to prove the strength and validity of science. And second, think on this. In an infinite universe, any probability, given enough time, is a certainty. So the chances that the stars and planets were formed, and Earth sits in just the right solar position with just the right chemical composition to give rise to life that starts simplistic and evolves over time to become us are slim chances, to be sure. But it’s a chance that was inevitable due to the infinite nature of the universe.
December 8th, 2009 at 4:46 am
Digit, The theory of evolution and creationism is equal in a philosophical debate. I agree with what you said but I personally think evolutionists are involved at least some in the subject of creation verses the big bang theory. I think the term evolution has a much broader meaning today than it did during the 19th century. I agree with you though. I’ll be the first to admit sometimes I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Also I really don’t think it’s fair to say I was attacking science and knowledge because I was basically trying to express my disagreement with the big bang theory. I believe God created science and knowledge and I would never criticize what God has created.
As far as the missing gaps in scientific knowledge, I commend our scientist for their work but whether they ever find the answer to that gap or not doesn’t change God and who he is. A true Christian is also entirely comfortable with not knowing everything. I think it is human nature for us to not accept just not knowing to a certain degree. I think it’s natural for us to want to explore and try to solve the mysteries of the unknown. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree… I do appreciate the conversation though…
December 8th, 2009 at 11:56 am
chew on this
http://i.imgur.com/fNASG.gif
December 8th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
The history of science has been a steady and inevitable replacement of superstition with fact. What was once attributed to god is now understood. What makes you think that steady change will ever cease? That which you attribute to god will inevitably be explained rationally until all you have left is a myopic, white knuckle belief that he exists at all. When I observed my parents wrapping my christmas gifts, I stopped believing in Santa Claus because the only evidence I had for his existence was disproved.
December 9th, 2009 at 5:24 am
Guys, just incase you haven’t figured it out yet, I’m not that smart. When I was younger I thought I was probably somewhere around normal. The older I get the more I think I’m about half way between normal and stupid. I am very envious of people who can read a chapter out of a book and know and remember what they have read and are able to express what they have read very intelligently so that most if not all can understand it, at least to some degree. I’m not one of them.
The Bible tells me all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Adam and Eve sinned. God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge and of good and of evil and they did. After that they were no longer in right standing with God.
The evil serpent said God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
I do not know why the serpent was allowed to come on the scene.
I believe the Bible teaches Adam and Eve was living in a perfect world. Maybe they didn’t need to know all about the difference between good and evil. I believe they knew enough about right and wrong to know they were to obey the creator of all things.
Man is very good at turning things around. An attorney can take the truth and make it look like a lie and take a lie and make it look like the truth. We all know that. I am not that good at playing word games. There is an old church hymn that says “Many things about tomorrow I don’t seem to understand, but I know you holds tomorrow and I know who holds my hand”. Does that mean we are not supposed to read and study and learn about things we don’t understand? Of course not.
You can call it being hard headed or complacent or what ever you want. We all have to make certain decisions about some things whether we understand everything about it or not. I have made a decision to believe in God and His Word. If someone puts something out there that points away from the truths that are written in the word of God I am not going to accept it. I might read it and think about a little bit but I’m not going to soak my brain in it. Yes I believe it’s OK to believe in something and to stand for something you believe in. I have that right. I made that choice. I didn’t have to. I have no one to impress. I made that choice.
December 9th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Well then John, as a self admitted non-intellectual, you’ll have to trust me when I tell you, you haven’t given it enough thought.
And you never will.
December 9th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Its truly amazing what such a strident belief in a god will do to a person. This belief has made him into someone that sees himself as worthless and incapable of any understanding.
Indeed John, you’re even of the notion that you’re stupid and maybe even to the extent that you were born so. Perhaps that has been reinforced by your dealings with others but it starts with you and your personal beliefs. To be honest John, you’re not “stupid” in the sense that you are incapable. Willfully ignorant so as to lead to stupid actions and beliefs, yes, that would probably be appropriate. But stupid as an underlying element of your personal being? No. You have potential, just as everyone does, its whether you choose to explore that potential that defines you as an individual. Unfortunately, you have neglected much by choosing not to explore and for that I truly pity you.
December 9th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Hey John-
Christ just posted in a forum on Savage.com check it out.
http://forums.thestranger.com/showthread.php?t=70759
ps. you are NOT stupid.
December 13th, 2009 at 4:41 am
Raffles, After you read my last message and then quoted me as saying I saw myself as worthless and incapable of any understanding makes me wonder if this is the way you come up with your assumptions or proof of anything. If it is, you might want to take a little closer look at yourself.I quess I could go back through what I said and explain exactly what I meant but I know you well enough to know it wouldn’t do any good because you have your mind made up. When you read or hear a statement you stretch it in the direction you are going like hot gum on a July sidewalk… You step on it and it stretches in the direction you are going. Much of what I hear is hot gum stuck on my shoe.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:20 am
your quote sir:
“The older I get the more I think I’m about half way between normal and stupid. I am very envious of people who can read a chapter out of a book and know and remember what they have read and are able to express what they have read very intelligently so that most if not all can understand it, at least to some degree. I’m not one of them.”
that suggests to me someone who believes themselves to be incapable of certain basic levels of understanding. its stated there in your own words. you say you are incapable of reading a chapter out of a book and remembering it. you follow this by stating, “The Bible tells me all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” which in and of itself demeans not only you but the entirety of humanity suggesting that we are all intrinsically of little or no value.
your god purports to be benevolent and loving no? tell me, what loving being would create creatures in a state of sickness (i.e. sin) and then command them to be well when it calls for us to be against our very nature?
i might also note sir that you know me hardly at all and for you to state that you do is asinine.
December 13th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Raffles, Your right guy, I guess I really didn’t say it quite right. I don’t think I am stupid but sometimes I do think I’m a little below normal as far as quickly comprehending information I have read once over. I guess what I meant to say was that I don’t have a photographic memory…I have to ponder things a little longer than most I think. At any rate I do respect you all for standing your ground in what you believe as well as what you don’t believe. I do wish you all well. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I wish I was intelligent enough to put into words what I would like to convey to you but I guess even if I did you still have that right to choose… The Bible I believe in says to choose you today who you will serve. We all have to make that decision and as for me I will serve the Lord. Your right Raffles. I don’t know you.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:12 am
UGH!! I hate that phrase! “Let’s just agree to disagree.” No, let’s not. There are certain things you may disagree with me on, but if you’re wrong, then why would I let you go on thinking that?
I think this sums it up pretty well.
December 20th, 2009 at 11:27 am
I really don’t like that phrase either but I guess I have become very discouraged after all this time. Nothing I say seems to affect you guys. That’s why I get so angry with myself to the point that I knock myself and feel ignorant because I can’t figure out a way to say that one thing that will make you see where I’m coming from. If I’m right and you leave this world without Christ, you have a whole lot more to lose that I do if your right. If there is no God then what’s the big deal about anything.
I don’t beieve the Bible because I just think it sort of seems like a good alternative. I belive it because I have trusted and tested and tried it and I know that Gods promises are true.
December 20th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Just… stop. You haven’t died and gone to heaven.
At this point, I’m ready to agree that you’re wrong and let you disagree with that. Just stop with your illogical argument and aggressive public ignorance!
December 20th, 2009 at 11:48 am
ok.
December 20th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
John, what you’re espousing there is Pascal’s Wager. Basically it says, if there is a god and you don’t believe, you’ve lost everything. If there isn’t a god and you do believe, you’ve lost nothing.
But that’s a very flawed argument. If there isn’t a god and I do believe, I have lost a lot. I have dedicated time and energy to something that’s not true. I’ve lived a lie. I’ve willfully endured suffering and ignorance in the only life I have based on a promise that’s not true. Being godless allows me to choose. I choose to be good, I choose to be kind, I choose to be empathic, I choose to be moral because being otherwise would make other’s lives more difficult and would make my life much more difficult. I also choose to embrace the wonders of this life rather than rejecting them because of someone’s imaginary rules. Being godless allows me to be good BECAUSE I’M GOOD, not because someone requires me to be good.
December 20th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
oh digit, you forgot to mention the best bit about pascals wager… what if he’s wrong about the god he’s worshiping?? heh there are millions of muslims (not to mention other sects of christianity along with judaism and those are just the abrahamic religions!) out there who have just as much likelihood of being right as you do john (and they believe as fervently that they are right)… so what if you’re wrong? don’t answer that though, its predominately a rhetorical question meant to demonstrate the ridiculousness of that particular argument. have a pleasent day.
December 20th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
I KNEW I was missing a part of it, but for the life of me I couldn’t remember what. Thanks, Raff!
December 20th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Kerist!
June 6th, 2010 at 4:54 am
I wish you all would reconsider
You all do not and never will understand everything about this world in which you live. God created this world and as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are His ways higher than your ways, and His thoughts higher that your thoughts. Seek the Lord while He is may be found, call upon Him while he is near. Return to the Lord and He will have mercy and will abundantly pardon.
“GOD BLESS AMERICA”
The United States of America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth. It is the nation I was born in, the nation I grew up in, the nation I was educated in, the nation I live in. It is the nation I love, the nation that protects me from invasion from foreigners, the nation that provides me with a government that allows me to have a say. I love the United States of America. The United States of America is truly the greatest nation on the face of the earth.
The United States is not great because of our armies, or wealth, or our people. It is because God gave his understanding and heart to our forefathers when they formed this great nation. The United States of America will remain strong only as long as its people seek God, and remain true to him.
Have you ever wondered just where you are in life… or where you are in comparison with others or in comparison with where you think you should be? I spend a lot of time wondering just where I should be. Maybe a lot of us do… I started to say all of us do… A few years ago I think I would have said all of us do, but not now… Now I really do believe that a lot of people never really consider where they are in life… I think many people any more only think about what they want right now and what they will want tomorrow… Who or what should I compare myself to? Should I be comparing myself with anyone or anything? At this time I really don’t know… If I should be comparing myself to anyone or anything then what is it? You may be thinking that if being a Christian and believing in God is such a great idea then why do I seem so confused about many things concerning life. I am not sure, but I do believe there are many things about tomorrow I don’t seem to understand but I know who holds tomorrow and I know who holds my hand.
June 6th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
could someone block this guy? seriously he’s not offered any new arguments, all he is doing is attempting to proselytize with his false humbleness. time and again we’ve asked him numerous questions which he either avoids or if he does answer them its in a such a manner as to completely disregard any points which do not agree with his point of view. i’d say he was merely ignorant but im tired of attempting to be polite to people who are wantonly STUPID.
look john if you want to believe in jesus and the magic wishing well that is your god (without proof mind), go right on ahead but i’m fairly certain no one here is interested in being proselytized too. i dont take issue with other peoples beliefs so long as they dont attempt to impose them on others. what i do take offense too however, is your poor excuse for a history education which you look to foist on others… suffice to say, i do not suffer such fools as you easily.
so all this being said, to anyone else reading this, the founders and framers of our nation were not all vehemently christian or vehemently atheist. as a matter of FACT, they happened to be a group of people whose beliefs covered a wide spectrum of ideas and notions. our nation, these united states, was created as a secular nation where the power came from and resided in the people… they are the arbiters here, no higher power then that is need. want proof? just look at the first line of the constitution (oh and all the memoirs biographies, histories and accounts of the founding of our nation… the academic ones, not the politically/religiously motivated crap this guy ascribes too)… http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Preamble
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
have a nice day
June 6th, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Dear John,
Raffles said it eloquently.
Allow me to say it crudely.
FAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT!!!
Love,
Digit
June 7th, 2010 at 12:07 am
Thank you, Raffles, Digit.
I won’t block this guy. I like the idea that he wastes so much time trying to convert us when we all know it’s not going to work and with every word, he just digs himself a deeper and deeper hole in the Swamp of Stupid.
I mean, really, with as many grammatical and logical failings, do you think it’s a great idea to mention your education as something you’re PROUD of?
June 7th, 2010 at 1:39 am
I think your right. I do need to stay off here. No one said anything for so long so I thought I would just make a few comments about what I was thinking. Your right, I don’t have much education. I have, however learned a few things in life. I guess not enough to converse with you guys. It was never my intent to get under your skin. I disagree with almost everything you guys stand for but I do respect you and your privilege to express yourself. Sorry if I offended anyone.
June 7th, 2010 at 2:44 am
Shut up you fucking troll.
You’ve played the “poor ignorant turd, too dumb to win this argument” card to death. What you’re too ignorant for is critical thinking, which makes me sad for you. If I was a praying man, I’d pray for you.
Instead, I’ll probably forget about you until next time you feel like you need to let a bunch of strangers who generally think you’re a stubborn dumbass know what you’re thinking.
June 9th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
What I don’t get is, if you KNOW you’re too uneducated and under-qualified to get in an intellectual debate, what makes you think anything you believe is right? Wouldn’t your ignorance make everything you believe suspect?
It’s that “I ain’t the smartest guy in the room, but I have a gut feeling” mentality that got us into 2 unwinnable wars and a second term with a dunce president.
September 21st, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Just wanted to say hi. It has been over a year. Hope you guys are doing alright.
September 21st, 2011 at 6:05 pm
I’ve decided John is messing with us.
Kudos to him for taking it so far.
February 7th, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Excellent points altogether, you simply won a new reader. What could you recommend about your post that you made a few days in the past? Any sure?